Need Help Diagnosing Problem

[Andrew Steele]

For the past lil while, I've had a "whirring" sound comming from the transmission area.  It was only occuring when under load.  Loudest in first. If I pushed in the clutch, the sound went away, if I let off the gas the sound went away.  The faster I went, the quieter the sound was.

It's gotten worse, however, to the point that the whirring sound is louder, easily heard in all gears, and can now be heard even with the clutch in.  If I push the clutch in while I'm in motion, rev's go down, things quiet down but you can still hear this light rubbing from the same area.  Now, if I take it OUT of gear, while still in motion, total silence.  All these things point to transmission, right?  Here's a curveball...

When under load, turning a corner, it's predominantly louder. This made/makes me think CV or wheel-bearing/hub.  

The clutch feels good still, no change in degree of engagement/disengagement.  Shifting through gears is still easy, no problem there.  So does this rule out the clutch and/or the tranny as the problem?

When down-shifting say from 3rd to 2nd, the car shudders just as it goes into gear (before full pressure is applied to the flywheel).  But once the clutch has completely reached the top, the shudder goes away.

I've jacked the car up and looked at everything I could w/o removing a whole lot, due to lack of tools and experience. The cv boots look fine, they're not dry or cracked. There's some oily deposits on the bottom part of the wheel well and on the outer portion of the CV axle, but I couldn't find the source.  It may had been from when I was doing my brakes and was bleeding the brake lines ... but I'm not sure.   There are no obvious signs of leakage from the transmission and I've recently topped it off with RedLine's MTL (in hopes that perhaps the fluid was burned or something).

Not sure what to think next, I need someone's help.  And from what I've been hearing lately, Lowell isn't around too much these days.  I can't afford to leave the talon at L&R for a week+ just to find out what the problem is as this is my daily driver and required for work.

2mo. away from my wedding, this isn't what I need...  

Thanks
Andrew

[Travis Merrick]

when have you changed your tranny fluid last?

[Ryan Lore]

I highly doubt tranny fluid has anything to do with clutch chatter.

I'd be willing to bet, overheated/cooked clutch and the friction material,
I'd be thinking that it saw a fair bit of abuse while trying to put Jeff in his place.

Overheating the friction surfaces causes a glazing to happen, sorta makes everything shiny, the shiny patches don't grab as well and you have grab/slip/grab/slip x rpm = chatter.

A diy'er will usually take a couple of days to do the install, the machine shop usually takes a day to machine your flywheel, factor in work and there you go.

[Andrew Steele]

I highly doubt tranny fluid has anything to do with clutch chatter.

I'd be willing to bet, overheated/cooked clutch and the friction material,
I'd be thinking that it saw a fair bit of abuse while trying to put Jeff in his place.

Overheating the friction surfaces causes a glazing to happen, sorta makes everything shiny, the shiny patches don't grab as well and you have grab/slip/grab/slip x rpm = chatter.

A diy'er will usually take a couple of days to do the install, the machine shop usually takes a day to machine your flywheel, factor in work and there you go.

It's entirely possible I've glazed the clutch ... yes, I do put a few beatings on it, especially when I was trying to figure out the speed-shifting via trial&error ... and if that's the case, then great! It's a means to an end, and I'll get the clutch replaced.  However, the chattering is only when it's going into gear and downshifting.  Other than that, the car still pulls great in the first three gears as usual.  That's what I can't understand, there's no huge loss in performance.  Perplexing.  As for when the fluid was changed over, maybe 7months ago I had it drained and filled, then two weeks ago I had it topped off.  

Side note, how much to machine your flywheel? Will machinging it, lighten it? I'm thinking this would be very similar to getting your rotors machined, no?

Thnx guys.
Andrew

[Ryan Lore]

If the chattering is only happening when the clutch is partially engaging, ie shifting gears, once the tranny comes up to flywheel speed they basically lock together. therefore no chatter but before the pressure plate achieves full squeeze on the friction material, the inconsistancies in the friction surface cause the grab slip syndrome.

I'd be more than willing to bet if your car was runnin with a few more hamsters (   :wink:  you n/t guys ! ) it would slip under power also....

Keep in mind, this is all theory, nobody would really know til someone looks at it...

Machining the flywheel is exactly like machining a rotor. Not so much for weight savings. It is possible to shave it down but it's done at your own risk. ie NOT recommended.

[Mike Schmid]

Umm... odd combo of symptoms... you checked all the vfaqs on tranny stuff I assume?  Well, if you want a place with some more tools and someone with some experience you can sure bring it by my place out in Harrison here.  It's a bit of a drive but I've got a pretty decent selection of tools and I've gone through 3 trannies in my car already  :cry:

If you do decide it's the clutch and want to save some labour money too bring it by.  I've changed my clutch and I can bring an NT from running and driving to tranny on the ground in about an hour by myself, faster with some help.  I've pulled and reinstalled the tranny out of my car 3 times, the tranny in the parts car once, pulled and reinstalled the engine in my car and my parts car once, in addition to pulling other motors and trannies in a variety of vehicles so I have a pretty good idea of what I'm doing.

[Andrew Steele]

Umm... odd combo of symptoms... you checked all the vfaqs on tranny stuff I assume?  Well, if you want a place with some more tools and someone with some experience you can sure bring it by my place out in Harrison here.  It's a bit of a drive but I've got a pretty decent selection of tools and I've gone through 3 trannies in my car already  :cry:

If you do decide it's the clutch and want to save some labour money too bring it by.  I've changed my clutch and I can bring an NT from running and driving to tranny on the ground in about an hour by myself, faster with some help.  I've pulled and reinstalled the tranny out of my car 3 times, the tranny in the parts car once, pulled and reinstalled the engine in my car and my parts car once, in addition to pulling other motors and trannies in a variety of vehicles so I have a pretty good idea of what I'm doing.

Mike,
Depending on finances, timing, degredation of the drive-train - I'll definitely take you up on that. If I can make her last till atleast the 15th (payday) then I'll most likely be replacing whatever it is that's broken or dieing.  My immediate problem, is pinpointing what is wrong.  I don't want to (nor do I have the finances) to replace the clutch only to find out it's the tranny, or vice versa ...

however, once the problem has been isolate/identified - I'll gladly make a trip to Harrison and tear this baby apart with ya.  But first things first. diagnosis.

cheers
Andrew

[John Hartman]

all the clutch talk is good, but what really worries me is the whirring and other noises from the tranny area.

under load (cornering and accelerating) says tranny bearings to me.  Hope not, but clutches don't make those sorta noises, at least not from what I've seen.

You aren't going to pay too much more to do the clutch and the tranny than to do just the tranny, as almost all the clutch cost is in the labour to pull the tranny.  Its obviously gonna be out if you are rebuilding it.  Just get a stock clutch from a jobber, and a Mitsu throwout bearing.  And no insult meant, but the stock clutch should be enough for the N/T motor.  The shop I work at uses alot of Dynapacks, and all the techs say good things about them.  Plus they are cheap.  Maybe not for a built turbo motor, but a mildly modded N/T (150 hp or so) they should be sufficient.

[Mike Schmid]

When my tranny crapped out on me it made alot of nasty bearing noise when rolling.  You could really hear it in 1st and 2nd because of the lack of wind/road noise.  Typical input shaft bearing symptoms are a grinding/dead bearing noise with the clutch out at idle and no noise with the clutch in at idle.  I've never had bad wheel bearings but I would assume they'd get louder and increase it sound with vehicle speed, not engine speed.  As in, if you run through 1st the tranny should kinda whirr up in volume quickly as you rev if the tranny bearings are bad but the wheel bearings should do it more slowly as you bring the vehicle speed up.  

It'd be nice to hear it... If I'm out that way anytime soon or if you're out my way, even halfway or something, I don't mind doing a bit of a drive to meet up and do some diagnosing.

[Andrew Steele]

So, talked to Lowell today (thanks for taking the time to hear me out and give me some advice, Lowell!) ... and his feeling is the same as Mikes.  Input shaft/bearing assy.  So, now I'm on the prowl for a used or rebuilt NT tranny.

If anyone knows of someone selling a used/rebuilt NT tranny, or knows of a shop that sells or rebuilds the NT tranny, please let me know.  I'm going to hit the local auto-wreckers for some prices and see what I can come up with.  Either way, it's a shitty deal and I doubt I'll make it to the Shootout.  Again, any help is appreciated.

Cheers
Andrew

[John Hartman]

kinda figured it was bearings, crappy deal.

If I hear of anything, I will get ahold of you.

[Matthew Giene]

Andrew,

Based on your description, this sounds just like my problem.  Hopefully its not, as the input bearing was just replaced when I had my clutch done 6 months ago.

Only time will tell...

[Andrew Steele]

Found a place that has used 6bolt M/T FWD Trannies ...

http://www.ralphsauto.com/a-scott.shtml

$450 with a 4mo warranty.  They have a few in stock.

If I get there on the 13th, and they are all out of stock - I'll come kill you all  :evil:

[Cole MacDonald]

My tranny just started wirring two days ago too and its getting louder every day!!! basically the same symptoms as Andrews!!!! The wirring varies with vehicle speed, not engine speed so it must be something near the tranny output I'm thinking.

[Andrew Steele]

My tranny just started wirring two days ago too and its getting louder every day!!! basically the same symptoms as Andrews!!!! The wirring varies with vehicle speed, not engine speed so it must be something near the tranny output I'm thinking.

Did you recently replace your tranny fluid? If so, what with?