British Columbia DSM
GVRD - BC DSM Club => Garage => Topic started by: Wes Chapman on September 13, 2007, 10:14:28 pm
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So I'm on my way to Mission and I'm doing 140-160km on the huge and wide stretch just before town, and I notice the power was down and wouldn't go faster. So I figure theirs a boost leak and Ill check when I arrive. Soon I get behind some traffic, several mins pass, and notice I have NO power at all, and could barely keep it going to pull over. Push it to a gas station a couple blocks away, and wait for my ride while I ponder in my head what could've happened.
So I notice and burnt oil smell and get out and check. My water reservoir was boiling (gauge read normal) and oil from the valve cover had spewed oil everywhere, not alot but noticeable.
After it cooled, I checked the water level, and oil level, all is good, and it starts up fine. So I limp it to my moms place and notice a metal spinning blade sound resembling a turbo with bad bearings. After checking, notice some peices of the impeller missing, and blame the turbo. And swap in a new one today.
Now It still makes a loud knocking sound from the motor. Turbo sounds normal. Oil pressure seems low now too. I have no idea WTF is going on here and need help asap.
I NEED someone to look at it and give me some direction here, I'm new to DSM's and I'm unsure what it could be and dont have large coin to throw at it.
HELP PLEASE!!!! The car at is at my garage ion Delta if someone can help .
1999 Eclipse GSX (Lois's old one)
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where is the sound coming from? the head or the bottom of the motor?
pull your oil pan, or drain your oil, to see what kinda bits and pieces are in it.
from your description of your clanking, could be a toasted bearings in the bottom end. that could also be why you have lower oil pressure from more clearance on the bearings. taking a guess here.
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that T28 Turbo how new was it? if it's new and it went then there are some oiling issues and most likely bottom end bearings are shot. After new turbo install is it smoking at all?
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that T28 Turbo how new was it? if it's new and it went then there are some oiling issues and most likely bottom end bearings are shot. After new turbo install is it smoking at all?
No smoke at all, and the T-28 was used, but from another BCDSM members car.
If I drop the oil pan will I notice play on the connecting rods if the bearings are shot? How can I check to see if the oil pan is working correctly?
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Drain the oil, no need in dropping the pan, if you notice any metal shavings in the oil, then drop the pan. I would suggest showing the car to someone knowledgeable so they could identify knocking sound.
Bad Rod bearing sounds like a hammer hitting an iron wall. Best way to tell if it's a rod bearing is to start the car, then disconnect plug wires one at a time, whichever rod bearing is shot it will stop knocking once you disconnect the corresponding cylinder plug.
let us know what you've found.
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was the knocking sound there before installing the turbo? or started to happen after a while you installed the turbo?
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was the knocking sound there before installing the turbo? or started to happen after a while you installed the turbo?
Well when my car overboosted and i heard that noise it was due to a bent connecting rod
It developed over a couple mins of steady cruizing behind traffic, so I doubt I was over boosting.
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Drain the oil, no need in dropping the pan, if you notice any metal shavings in the oil, then drop the pan. I would suggest showing the car to someone knowledgeable so they could identify knocking sound.
Bad Rod bearing sounds like a hammer hitting an iron wall. Best way to tell if it's a rod bearing is to start the car, then disconnect plug wires one at a time, whichever rod bearing is shot it will stop knocking once you disconnect the corresponding cylinder plug.
let us know what you've found.
No metal shavings that I noticed (I had all ready changed to oil when I swapped in the new turbo) And I'm going to check the cylinders with the spark plug method today. You described the sound well... "like a hammer hitting an iron wall"
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I also don't like the part with "boiling coolant" that sounds like bubbling in the recovery bottle right? That spells dead head gasket too, what happens is the engine compression pushes out into the coolant passages and makes bubbles, like when you blow back into your drink thru the straw.
If you pull the pan, you can push/pull on each rod and find the play in either the main bearing or the rod bearing. Or visibly see a bent rod or other damage.
If its anything in the bottom end(and it almost has to be) its not worth rebuilding it, as you are going to have to do the head gasket anyways, and that means doing the timing belt/water pump stuff now that the belts are off. So, you can do all that stuff with the engine in the car (balance shaft removal sucks in car) or you can get another good working engine and swap it as a unit.
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I also don't like the part with "boiling coolant" that sounds like bubbling in the recovery bottle right? That spells dead head gasket too, what happens is the engine compression pushes out into the coolant passages and makes bubbles, like when you blow back into your drink thru the straw.
Check radiator cap first.
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I also don't like the part with "boiling coolant" that sounds like bubbling in the recovery bottle right? That spells dead head gasket too, what happens is the engine compression pushes out into the coolant passages and makes bubbles, like when you blow back into your drink thru the straw.
If you pull the pan, you can push/pull on each rod and find the play in either the main bearing or the rod bearing. Or visibly see a bent rod or other damage.
If its anything in the bottom end(and it almost has to be) its not worth rebuilding it, as you are going to have to do the head gasket anyways, and that means doing the timing belt/water pump stuff now that the belts are off. So, you can do all that stuff with the engine in the car (balance shaft removal sucks in car) or you can get another good working engine and swap it as a unit.
I think your right on all counts. The engine knocking is reduced when cylinder 2 spark plug is removed. Which almost certainly spells crank shaft problems, and if the head gasket needs changing, and what ever other damage occurred that I don't know about because of the ridiculously loud knocking that I cant hear yet.... OMFG ....WTF! I must have ran too much boost then?? Why did the rest of the motor get starved of oil and cause all this damage? How can I prevent this in the future?!! Arggghh... I miss my reliable cars I used to own.....
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well, if the head gasket went causing water and oil to mix, your main and rod bearings(not to mention everything else) were being lubricated by "salad dressing" not engine oil. It looks like a mochachino when it comes out if its bad.
as far as dsm reliability, for the most part, things like this don't happen that much. Yes you have to do timing belts etc and you have to maintain them, but bottom end problems(besides crank walk on 7bolts) are pretty rare. Well, unless you get really bad detonation or run out of oil or something like that.
My car has 260+ on it and I drive it hard, and its close to making double the power it came with from the factory.
Mike S's car has well over 300+ on his.
There is a guy back east that went nearly 400,000 on his.
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well, if the head gasket went causing water and oil to mix, your main and rod bearings(not to mention everything else) were being lubricated by "salad dressing" not engine oil. It looks like a mochachino when it comes out if its bad.
as far as dsm reliability, for the most part, things like this don't happen that much. Yes you have to do timing belts etc and you have to maintain them, but bottom end problems(besides crank walk on 7bolts) are pretty rare. Well, unless you get really bad detonation or run out of oil or something like that.
My car has 260+ on it and I drive it hard, and its close to making double the power it came with from the factory.
Mike S's car has well over 300+ on his.
There is a guy back east that went nearly 400,000 on his.
The oil never got that frothy look it would usually get when head gaskets go, and I never noticed any white smoke either. Maybe the head gasket is okay?
Does anyone know how to check the oil pump? I never ran low of oil at anytime since I have owned the car (maybe half a quart at most) And I always run 91 octane so detonation shouldn't be and issue unless the knock sensor wasn't functioning?
Tomorrows I'm dropping the pan and having a closer look, and Ill post some pics of my findings. Thanks for all the help guys... I miss my car and can't wait to get her running again. Its now a very expensive lawn ornament right now ;)
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What kind of oil do you run?
I run 20w50 on both my motors. The new one is fairly loose to handle bigger power on forged internals and the thick oil has the good film strength on the bearings if you see any detonation. On the old stock motor with 300k kms I'm also running it because the clearances have got to be getting pretty loose on that motor and it can't hurt. Plus all the reading I've done on oils says the only reason we're seeing these lightweight oils is to help meet CAFE fuel economy standards. Better fuel economy means you can sell more cars in general and better economy in the small cars leaves more room for the manufacturers to offer guzzler SUVs with high profit margins. The thinner oil will keep a motor together past warranty so it's a no-lose for the manufacturer.
Couple that with reformulated oil blends that eliminate the really good additives because they're harmful to the environment and the thicker oil really can't hurt. This reformulation is apparently a good share of the cause of flat tappet lifter failure in the pushrod v8 world, which apparently is becoming something of an epidemic.
I can't/won't say it's the cause of what happened but possibly a contributor.
As far as detonation saying "no chance of that, I run 91" is almost laughable. No offence intended, it's just the way it is. You can melt motors down on 94, quickly even. You can definitely have knock on any pump gas. Even leaded race gas isn't always a cure all for detonation, tho it is far less likely in that case.
What was your boost pressure? Raising the boost too much on an otherwise stock motor is a sure way to bring on detonation.
There's a lot of things that could potentially kill a performance motor. Detonation is a huge one, it's always suspect on anything boosted or high compression. It's hard on pistons, especially right lands, and also on rods and bearings. Overheating is another fairly big one. Either the stock system is inadequate, or extended high stress use can do that. Also, something to watch, especially on a turbo motor is exhaust gas temperature. Extended high speed operation or high throttle hill climbing can put alot of heat in the exhaust and potentially burn valves or damage turbos. Oil starvation is another one, not so common tho, often caused by something careless, excessive RTV breaking off and clogging a passage, garbage in the pan, oil pump/pickup failure, low oil.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, good guages are a good way to safeguard a motor.
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was the knocking sound there before installing the turbo? or started to happen after a while you installed the turbo?
Well when my car overboosted and i heard that noise it was due to a bent connecting rod
It developed over a couple mins of steady cruizing behind traffic, so I doubt I was over boosting.
Even mine happened while cruising
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What kind of oil do you run?
I run 20w50 on both my motors. The new one is fairly loose to handle bigger power on forged internals and the thick oil has the good film strength on the bearings if you see any detonation. On the old stock motor with 300k kms I'm also running it because the clearances have got to be getting pretty loose on that motor and it can't hurt. Plus all the reading I've done on oils says the only reason we're seeing these lightweight oils is to help meet CAFE fuel economy standards. Better fuel economy means you can sell more cars in general and better economy in the small cars leaves more room for the manufacturers to offer guzzler SUVs with high profit margins. The thinner oil will keep a motor together past warranty so it's a no-lose for the manufacturer.
Couple that with reformulated oil blends that eliminate the really good additives because they're harmful to the environment and the thicker oil really can't hurt. This reformulation is apparently a good share of the cause of flat tappet lifter failure in the pushrod v8 world, which apparently is becoming something of an epidemic.
I can't/won't say it's the cause of what happened but possibly a contributor.
As far as detonation saying "no chance of that, I run 91" is almost laughable. No offence intended, it's just the way it is. You can melt motors down on 94, quickly even. You can definitely have knock on any pump gas. Even leaded race gas isn't always a cure all for detonation, tho it is far less likely in that case.
What was your boost pressure? Raising the boost too much on an otherwise stock motor is a sure way to bring on detonation.
There's a lot of things that could potentially kill a performance motor. Detonation is a huge one, it's always suspect on anything boosted or high compression. It's hard on pistons, especially right lands, and also on rods and bearings. Overheating is another fairly big one. Either the stock system is inadequate, or extended high stress use can do that. Also, something to watch, especially on a turbo motor is exhaust gas temperature. Extended high speed operation or high throttle hill climbing can put alot of heat in the exhaust and potentially burn valves or damage turbos. Oil starvation is another one, not so common tho, often caused by something careless, excessive RTV breaking off and clogging a passage, garbage in the pan, oil pump/pickup failure, low oil.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, good guages are a good way to safeguard a motor.
Good post. I think I'm going to invest in analog oil pressure, and tempeture gauges to help in the future.
I was running 10-30 QS oil before failure. What about running synthetic oil?
When I said "no chance of that, I run 91" I was told and thought that the knock sensor would detect any knock, and immediately retard the timing. Does this sensor not do that? Or is it not quick enough to prevent damage?
I was at 10psi or so when doing 120+ kms, and the MBC kicks in at 15 psi. In the future Ill have an electronic BC. If I run the new motor I'm picking up tomorrow at the same psi am I likely to have the same problem in the future? Or will the added gauges/knowledge/thicker oil/etc alleviate this potential failure?
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with a spike of 15psi with 28killa you will most likely damage your new motor without any fuel mods.
motor will go *POOF*
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So you've got a bigger than stock turbo and higher than stock boost. The ECU doesn't have enough range to eliminate knock by itself on a setup like that. The ECU is only really has enough control to save the stock engine in good tune with bad gas or maybe being slightly out of tune. It's definitely not enough that you don't need worry about how high you turn the boost up.
An electronic boost controller won't change what happened any. Providing it's set the same as the MBC you should still have the same boost at the same RPM or if anything more boost, especially under acceleration, because of the different operating characteristics of the EBC.
What you really need is to be able to log knock, see where it's knocking, tune that knock out and figure out when you need to back out of it on long pulls up hills and the like. I've got DSMLink in one of my cars and it's a great, easy to use, and quite powerful program. It's alot more money than just a logger tho, but a logger won't let you change anything, only view, DSMLink does both. I don't know much about the OBDII loggers because I'm a 1G guy. if you can get something that runs on a palm pilot that can be real handy, I mounted mine up by the dash vents and use it like a guage sometimes. It gives a real good idea of what kind of conditions cause knock and can give some other general feedback on your driving style/ECU operation as it relates to fuel economy, for instance.
A Wideband 02 sensor is also a great tool to have to monitor your engine tune.
Have you taken the motor apart yet to find out what's wrong? There should be some good signs in there of what went wrong. Which will in turn tell you how to keep it from happening in the future.
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oh and run 94 octane fuel if running more than stock boost and a bigger than stock turbo
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What about a 6bolt replacement?
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just get a 6 bolt
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almost done... hanging off the the picker in my engine bay now! I miss my car!
(http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v141/79/47/712355509/n712355509_1359119_4884.jpg)
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Unless that's special paint, you are going to have one hell of a smoke show when you fire that thing up.
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Unless that's special paint, you are going to have one hell of a smoke show when you fire that thing up.
Aluminum engine enamel from CT
The smoke will come from my tires, when I leave the garage for the last time! ;)
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Well dude, i can tell you that the paints heat capacity will onyl hold on certain areas. You manifold, turbo, engine head and 02 housing will become too hot and the paint will discolor, everywhere else will be fine...trust me my engine is green
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looks pretty now, but I agree, the exhaust manifold, turbine housing and O2 housing are FOR SURE going to smoke off very nastily and flake and look like crap. Also anything close to them will also discolour and burn off.
Even the exhaust manifold heat shield(the top one) is double walled and needs 1200deg paint. I tried it with high heat brake caliper paint(good to 450deg) and it lasted about 1 block from a cold fire-up. And thats double walled and insulated.
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fuk I hope it doesn't turn green!! Oh well... too late now
Its mounted, and I'm just connecting all the remaining odds and ends. Cant wait to have my wheels back, getting cold on my motorcycle at night.
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DSM is turning ordinary people into mechanics since 1990.
So is this a 6bolt? Did you taken apart old motor to see it inside?
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DSM is turning ordinary people into mechanics since 1990.
So is this a 6bolt? Did you taken apart old motor to see it inside?
No, its a JDM 7-bolt. I had to swap over pretty much everything. Did a compression test, and all is good and even across the board, so I'm taking my chances on the internals being good. I'm going to run 1030 penzoil synthetic, and keep a sharp eye on my oil levels, and new gauges. Fingers and toes crossed, while knocking on wood that it'll be reliable for me.
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Also, I've got 510cc injectors from the JDM motor I'm going to use. The old ones were 450cc. If set the BC to 12 to 15 will I be safe with the KT-28 or will I still have to be extremely careful of the boost level spiking or rising to quick?
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you need something to control the 510's as the stock computer still thinks you have 450s in there. Your car will run too rich, costing you fuel economy, air care and power.
you need an safc or similar. Minimally a logger and a good fuel pressure regulator will do it, but it will be global setting only.
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I agree with John. You are running bigger injectors without any fuel mods which means you are going to run rich everywhere. It's not going to run right with just the stock ECU.
If you are not planning to get the supporting mods I would suggest you to run the stock 450cc for now. There is really no point in running bigger injectors at your current setup i.e. no ability to tune.
Did you upgrade your fuel pump yet? Or at least rewire it? Else you'll need another engine pretty soon.
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Okay, so now my JDM 1994 7-bolt is installed and running, but runs rough. I used the 1G CAS (http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/tech/1gina2g.pdf)and all the '99 EFI intakes and accessories, and the AF gauge is pinned in the rich side. The o2 sensor, and all fuel system is unchanged from before motor swap. What do I need to test to get this running reasonably smooth again?
- Fuel pump is stock but rewired
- 450cc injectors are re-installed
- I also installed a potentiometer to adjust the barometric sensor
I had the T-28 installed when I bought the car from Louis, and It ran fine, so I cant see that affecting my idle particularly when no boost is present.
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get that pot out of there and make sure the connections on those wires is a good one. Solder and shrink wrap preferred.
Get it working correctly before you add any complication.
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get that pot out of there and make sure the connections on those wires is a good one. Solder and shrink wrap preferred.
Get it working correctly before you add any complication.
How do i "get that pot out of there" without swapping the head? The housing is different.
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"I also installed a potentiometer to adjust the barometric sensor"
potentiometer = pot.
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"I also installed a potentiometer to adjust the barometric sensor"
potentiometer = pot.
Oh okay. I did this mod to supposedly help the idle, but to no avail. With it removed it runs just as poor.
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Well once you install it, set it to zero, then keep cranking it up till the car stops doing random misfiring, don't just crank it since if you set it too high ur car can barely idle