British Columbia DSM
GVRD - BC DSM Club => Garage => Topic started by: Jordan Kruger on January 13, 2011, 01:26:30 pm
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I am YET to get a kit on my car. But if you already have a kit or HAVE had a kit, you've seen results. And Im sure theres someone making more power than you with the exact same kit running the exact same boost. What kind of kit are you running? peak hp B4 + AFTER + supporting mods.
Next Q - progressive or not progressive? what do you think?
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I'm using a devils own non-progressive kit, set to turn on at 15psi.
I gained about 40hp and 35ft/lb by having the car tuned properly for the meth.
I'm running 20psi, with a GT30-10 turbo. Also running a fairly small nozzle, a D05 which is around 400ishcc, before the throttle body.
For a comparison, when dyno tuning we went up one nozzle size and i gained 14hp.
I'd almost consider going with the progressive kit now, but didn't have the coin at the time.
P.S. i'm also running 100% Meth
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Cool man. Very informative since were running the same turbo. Ide be happy with those results. The reason Im up in arms about a progressive kit is because I dont know how often I peak in and out of boost enough to find it useful... I understand I have to spool this thing before I move but after that I pretty much granny it. until the coast is clear.
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I also wonder what kind of results you would see from an additional nozzle pre turbo.
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I don't see the need for a progressive controller. I have 2 nozzles at the TB, a DO10 and a DO7, and one before the turbo a DO7. both come on between 10 and 15psi. I can't say what the gains were as I have done too many other things to pin it down to just that. a DO7 is 441cc/min.
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impressive. And for every person that doesnt like progressive there seems to be a person that swears by it. I think i may go with the standard on/off setup.
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either hobbs or progressive controllers work great depending on how you look at it (and even your budget - if there is one)
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either hobbs or progressive controllers work great depending on how you look at it (and even your budget - if there is one)
Sometimes the only thing you can do is just look at it
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i wont lie... i laughed . but i would ball kick that "just look at it" guy in real life.
Im thinking of going with a hobb's switch. they are super cheap.
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anyone using a on/off style meth setup.. have you noticed a hard to tune spot where the transition is? like does it sputter for a sec with all the meth on at once like that compared to a progressive one?
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that has been one of my main concerns the whole time. when im boosting I dont mind a jolt when the meth kicks in, but I dont want a hiccup lol
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it absolutely does NOT sputter or flat spot or anything. Its just seemless really.
Maybe with straight water or 75% water/25% methanol it might because if you add too much water it won't burn, but with at least 50/50 I have never seen an issue with that at all.
I have had one small nozzle, 2 small nozzles, one large nozzle, 2 large nozzles, and 2 large and one medium nozzle(current). I have had one and two post turbo, but after the bov and intercooler, and now I have that plus a pre turbo one.
Keep the pre turbo nozzle small and have good pressure so that the atomization is very good. This keeps large drops from hitting your compressor blades as they spin upwards of 120,000 rpm. Remember, liquid does not compress ;)
Also a higher pressure pump is a good idea for better atomization and flow. Plus the larger more modern pumps can handle more flow too, for you who run lots of large nozzles.
My results have been VERY good with this. I can't give you a figure, but I got nearly a full second improvement on the 1/4 mile track when still on the 14b from adding a single medium nozzle(0.7mm Aquamist) post turbo.
Also, with my current setup, I can't run over about 10-12 psi and about 60% throttle or I get knock. I can floor it at 26psi with the methanol.
Also I am running blue bug juice currently, with good results. With no pre turbo nozzle, I had to run pure methanol and only managed max of 22 psi.
I have also considerably leaned out the fuel map since the pre turbo setup as well, and especially the transition area(boost coming on and no methanol/water injection happening yet) It was VERY rich.
Another advantage to running water/methanol is that your intake manifold, intake valves and piston tops will be steam cleaned. the exhaust valves get some help too and so does the chamber part of the head.
With just methanol and richer mixtures, my freshly rebuilt engine, that I painstakingly cleaned the head and pistons, already had carbon flakes/buildup on.
As for on/off, or progressive, I find the on/off is just fine.
Set it to come on when you need it. If you start to get knock at 3800 and 15psi, then have it set to spray at 3700 and 13 psi. For example. It works very well.
Progressive would work fine too I am sure and would give you more options and more to play around with, but if you don't have the money, or just don't need the extra complexity, a good adjustable boost switch works just fine.
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i'm going with a snow performance kit because of the fail safes, if you're scared about aggressive tuning and pump fails.
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Dan - How much power are you making with your setup? Im also interested in running meth at a higher boost range like your 15psi. The car already will spin until I hit third. I definitely need to lower the 2step which I had set to 5500rpm haha. fun. Im hoping to pick up a 250psi pump and run a big nozzle. Ill start with one and consider a pre turbo nozzle. John - 5 more pounds sounds good. lol. Im sick of playin around with stupid little tasks on the car. Im determined to get this thing track ready. Ive got a bit of a list but determination takes you a long way.... until you find cheetos. and beer.
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I don't have any dyno numbers to play with, and am running a very mild setup - Still on the 14b.
I've currently got a small 250cc/min nozzle post turbo, about 14" before the intake manifold. Quells knock fairly well - After upgrading injectors 'n' stuff, I need to move to a larger - 450 or 500 cc/min nozzle.
I've found that I'm still getting knock on tip-in, and I believe it's a function of the pump and system. Ideally, if I did it all again, I'd build a pressurized system with an injector(s). The quicker delivery, as an autocrosser, would help when I'm in and out of the throttle often.
I'm running 50/50, and it's actuated via my boost controller (Turbosmart eBoost2).
To help figure out sizing, I found this helpful:
http://www.customperformancesolutions.com/waterinjectioncalc/ (http://www.customperformancesolutions.com/waterinjectioncalc/)
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Before, slow. After, Go.
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Dan - How much power are you making with your setup?
I made 248hp and 232ft/lb on RG dyno, i was at that time running a chipped eprom with SAFC for tuning. Stock 6 Bolt, with balance shafts removed. FMIC, 750cc injectors, 255HP Walbro, and the GT30-10, at around 19psi with 400ish cc's of meth post turbo. I believe the SAFC and chipped eprom were holding the car back, i was having some issues with the chip that was burnt for the car.
I've since changed to ECMLink, dropped in a set of cams, and put on a FP Race Manifold, i'm curious to see what it will put down now.
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Nice. keep me posted. Did you buy the garret brand new? Reason I ask i because I just bought the cartridge and used my original cold and hot side, And it still came to $1100 yikes. Im just curious what you paid. As for the car, Take it to RG if you ever get the chance. They ironed out my low end so the car is quite driveable and spools relatively quick now. Before that I had slight bogging problems.
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Cam, do you have a check valve in line, just before the nozzle? And do you have a solenoid or are you just activating the pump?
I find VERY little lag in my system. It sprays within miliseconds of the boost switch activating
Jordan, thats a good deal for those turbos. They were $1500 USD new a few years back. I used to have a -10 and now have a -12.
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If someone dosnt post a pic of a befor and after meth results from google images I wil lol :p
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meth = good nuff said.
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I gained about 40hp and 35ft/lb by having the car tuned properly for the meth.
I'm running 20psi, with a GT30-10 turbo. Also running a fairly small nozzle, a D05 which is around 400ishcc, before the throttle body.
For a comparison, when dyno tuning we went up one nozzle size and i gained 14hp.
I'd almost consider going with the progressive kit now, but didn't have the coin at the time.
P.S. i'm also running 100% Meth
Tuning without meth is mainly for low boost <15 psi... even then you have little margin of safety.
If you can't afford the meth ...drive a stocker and leave it that way and don't complain about bogging ,hesitation, sludge buildup, going up hills or high elevation driving.
Most dyno customers are so disappointed in their results they often install the meth kit immediately.
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all that said, there were good numbers produced before the masses used methanol/water :)
Most of that was on race fuel tho, so if you want a fast pump gas car, you almost have to use methanol/water injection.
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or put a 4g63 in a way lighter car then a heavy ass awd dsm!!
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and spin on the hiway :D
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huh?? i dont know what your talking about ;)
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Cam, do you have a check valve in line, just before the nozzle? And do you have a solenoid or are you just activating the pump?
I find VERY little lag in my system. It sprays within miliseconds of the boost switch activating
Yes to the check valve, it's correctly placed too. The boost controller activates the pump via a relay.
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ahh, ok.
Get a solenoid. Run the methanol to the solenoid from the pump. Then solenoid out to the check valve, then the nozzle. This way the pump keeps lots of pressure in the solenoid. The solenoid is also much faster acting. The pump takes a couple of seconds to build pressure, whereas the solenoid is nearly instantaneous in release.
Have whatever you use now to activate the solenoid.
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I have my system setup the same way John describes except I don't have the check valve after the solenoid. There's about 10" of line from my solenoid to my nozzle so I don't think that amount of liquid is gonna harm things. I also run an accumulator right after the pump which helps keep more fluid pressurized. My pump is powered by my fuel pump wire so the pump is active whenever my fuel pump is (car running). My solenoid is activated view my purge valve through the ECU code.
Having the meth system setup this way helps save pump life cause it's not constantly cycling and also as John mentioned it's instant flow.
If anyone cares, I'm running a 100psi Sureflow pump with an M10 nozzle at the elbow triggered to come on at 10psi. It seems to be working well so far.
Later, Vlad.
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Vlad, its worth noting that on your system(and my old one) you are using a demand pump. One that pressures up and shuts off till it needs more. On many of the newer high pressure pumps, they internally bypass so they always run when they are powered up. Running it this way would have the pump on the whole time the car is running.
I'm sure you get this, I just thought I'd add this for new people and for future searches.
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Ahh, yes that's right. My pump seems to be holding up fine but I'm sure a 250psi pump with be really good.
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I got a 250 pump in the mail the other day. Just need John to show me how he wired in his so I can copy and paste.
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you guys still haven't answered his question though...
so here it is.
(http://www.estatevaults.com/bol/images/%20%20before%20and%20after.jpg)
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Meth is good. Mmmkay.
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thats bullshit.. that first pic is after 10 beer. lol
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Back from the dead, not that chick in the picture but this thread of course.. I have a evo 3 16g with 650 injectors a wally 255hp, FMIC, AFPR, full 3 inch exhaust. Im wondering what kit you guys would recommend on getting im a complete noob when it comes to meth and I want to get this in so I dont waste my time getting a tune without it!
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get something with a good pump, a good solenoid and an adjustable switch.
you don't really need a progressive one or one with tons of extra features.
the pump, solenoid and switch are the important parts.
Well, and so are the injectors. Get something quality made.
If you don't go too huge on your methanol nozzles, you won't have to specifically tune for it, as it will just allow you to run more boost and timing on the same grade of fuel. Bigger isn't always better, especially at first.
Start with one small/medium nozzle in the upper intercooler pipe. Set it up to come on at about 10-15psi. Or wherever your knock starts to come on. Tune that or have it tuned to how you like it and drive/enjoy the car. If you need more later, you can add a second nozzle, or one pre turbo or even just put in a bigger one.
oh and use a check valve too in the line just before the nozzle.
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John. whats your take on having no check valve but running a solenoid close enough to the nozzle... The solenoid is a check valve technically, or am I wrong. The solenoid should have pressure behind it anytime its open... and when its closed it doesnt allow any backflow. My setup is allowing me to put my solenoid within inches of the nozzle. thats y i ask.
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https://www.rtmracing.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16150&cat=858&page=1
I like buying from zig so how does that kit look for my setup?
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that'll work but if you go that direction make sure you go with the 6-30psi switch. I may have missed the detail but i didnt see a pump size on there. try to go 150 or bigger. that appears to be a 100psi pump... but i may be wrong. I know Vlad just moved from a 100 to a 250recirc. due to lack of pressure. I havent ran my 150 pump but I think it should be fine.. 250psi recirc is balla!
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https://www.rtmracing.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16150&cat=858&page=1
I like buying from zig so how does that kit look for my setup?
I have that exact kit Dan. Its great, get the 6-30psi switch for sure. Its a 250psi pump, not sure if on demand or recirc.?
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probably demand. the recirc pump is a bit more.. but im shocked that a 250psi pump with that kit! thats rad!
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I guess if the line is short enough, no check valve is needed, but its better.
If the line is full, there is no delay, or chance of it being sucked into the engine when you don't want it, such as at idle. Again, with a short line its probably not that big a deal.
the higher pressure pumps do seem to work better, at least for me. The demand pumps are simpler to setup as you only need to trigger the pump with one switch, via the solenoid. With the recirc pumps you need something to turn it on once you are nearly ready to fire the solenoid or it will be running all the time. I have the fuel pressure solenoid line runing to the pump relay and its triggered at around 3000rpm, 4 psi and 30% tps via the ECU thru Jackal. Then its primed for when the switch opens the solenoid at 12 psi. Works well, because the pump is never running under normal driving conditions for more than a second or so maybe. But its ready to go when you need it.
But like I said, on demand pump can be just key on power because it shuts off when it reaches head pressure.
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Hey there John, I think you meant on-demand type pump in your last sentence.
Thanks for the info on your setup. Mine is currently wired to my fuel pump wire so it's running whenever the car is on. I'm going to wire it into my fuel pressure solenoid and as you described.
If you want to trigger your solenoid off of the purge solenoid valve like Jackal let me know ;)
The recirculating pump is the wayto go. I've seen videos on you tube comparing both types of pumps and their spray patterns out the nozzles. You can see that the on-demand pumps have a pulsing pattern which to me is varying pressure though the nozzles (varying cc/min). That and upgrading to a 200 psi pump would promote better atomization and effectively have 170 psi of pressure instead of 70 psi on my old pump when running 30 psi of boost.
I may just repurpose my 100 psi pump for pre-turbo meth injection or an IC sprayer.
Later, Vlad.
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edited sorry. Late post last nite.
yea the steady pressure is good. Tho I had an accumulator in there to keep things closer to steady.
And the extra pressure is good too, from both an atomization stand point and from a flow stand point. I had a 100psi pump before but now I have a 250.
On the topic of pressure tho, if you go from a 100 psi pump with 1 or more huge nozzles, you will be running TONS more methanol now, just be aware...
Oh and I am still running Jackal, but version 1.04, the free one. I cannot see any benefits of the new one so I see no reason to upgrade.
I would like to have the logger cable I bought, so I can log without Marke coming over, or buying a Keyspan adapter.
I would also like to have some of the features that others are talking about, such as the extended maps and some of the cool stuff being discussed elsewhere, but I need a good GUI to do it, I am not "one with the matrix" as it were...
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Meth Setup complete 8) all plumbing is done and Im wiring it up tomorrow So Im running a 150 coolingmist pump to an SMC accumulator to an SMC VX2120 Solenoid and then to a 12gph coolingmist nozzle. . stoked. Im startin off with bug wash. I dont really know what gains to expect but Im sure they will be quite significant once fully tuned. ;D
Thanks to Vlad busta and Andrew Volcz for helpin a brutha out .
Will post result once tuned. ;)
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u gonna love it mang!!
more boost, more timing, less fuel.
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Got it all wired up and functional now. Its ran off a switch at the moment till I get time to tune it. Ive managed to do a few WOT pulls and when I switch the meth on its quite the jolt! already makes a huge difference without tuning. Im getting a base tune with Vlad and then Im taking it to RG to put down some numbers.
Heres how I mounted everything in the trunk. I think it turned out great. I put metal backing behind the pump so I was able to mount it on the plastics panel. and I had to fab a bracket to hold the Bug wash bottle in place so stoked. itsss doooonnnneee 8)
(http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/5706/dsc05455m.jpg)
(http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/6364/dsc05457.jpg)
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HAHAHAHa, that bug juice bottle is priceless!
Just run the line to the stock washer fluid bottle.
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HELLL no i want this to be ghetto fabulous. haha. its runs out .. it gets a new tank lol
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hehehe. :)
you probably won't be able to run that at the track like that.
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yea ill be sure to do anything necessary around track time :) still need to set up my catch can and strap the battery down too
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looks kinda iffy... if that sucks in air during a pull and you're tuned for it you realize you stand to lose your engine...
just ask Ryan
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The meth reservoir should ideally be bottom-fed to eliminate any air in the line. When changing out the bottle I can't see how you would avoid it.
It looks frickin awesome though :)
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lol the line going into the bug wash is super tight going thru the lid and its fed right to the bottom of the bottle. It doesnt back out or anything. Ide be worried if i was using a dinky resevoir. With the small resevoirs you get more splashing under acceleration. And I also have an accumulator in that pic. its a secondary reservoir which will ensure that there is always fluid in the line. It will take about a month before the fluid gets low... and just like my fuel tank, it will never get lower than half tank ;) While we were water testing the setup yesterday we had the the nozzle hooked up but spraying into a bucket, and just with the accumulator pressure, it was able to spray for a good 2 minutes with the pump off. I like iffy awhp tho, thanks remi :P I may do a different rez someday, but for now Fak it! shit works. 8)
Ive noticed gains even without tuning. Once its tuned Im sure Ill reach my goal of 400+awhp ;D
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hey they're your pistons, you can do what you want :P
I see you got a new interior, looks much better.
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yup. new rear plastic. rear privacy cover. backseats. back seatbelts. front seats. door skins. Headliner. and rear carpet. ide say its had a complete makeover yea. lol I also managed to get a sideskirt panel too. Anyone with meth experience able to tell me what kind of gains I should expect with the system Im running currently? 150pump,12gph nozzle. I may incorporate pre-turbo nozzle if my pump can keep up. I was impressed with the performance of the setup in the simple fact that the nozzle doesnt pulsate. Im assuming it would if it werent for the accumulator. ;)
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Yep