British Columbia DSM
GVRD - BC DSM Club => Garage => Topic started by: Aaron dusseault on August 30, 2005, 07:46:53 pm
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Here is the deal I have a 1992 tsi with
Big 16g ported with 10deg clip
walboro fuel pump
550 injectors
safc
vpc
95 exhaust man
95 o2 housing
supra sidemount intercooler
act 2600 clutch
hks 264 cams
full 3" exhaust and dp
What path do you guys think I should take? I dont have a shit load of cash to spend..
What turbo should I buy? What are these bullseye turbos I keep hearing about? should I just buy a 20g? Am I going to have to buy a tial wastegate? At 23psi my injectors were running almost full duty cycle.Can I get a larger prom chip for my vpc for bigger injectors.Guys I value your oppinions .Let em rip.
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Nitrious?
GT30-13 and bigass injectors?
How much money is not that much?
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Has any body had any experience with sloyboy racing turbos :?:
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Well power comes from fuel, and if you've already run out of fuel you're going to need more before you're gonna make any more power. So you'll need some real injectors.
As for a turbo, stay local and talk to Kinetic. You won't have to deal with border hassles or tech/warranty problems with someone who's thousands of miles away and you'll be able to deal with knowledgeable people face to face. I don't see why you'd go anywhere else.
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I suggest a Slowboy GT30r and some 720's. Kinetic has that turbo and it is good for about 550hp. Im putting one on a 97 eclipse as we speak so I will keep you posted on how it works out.
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Like menationed before GT30 Turbos you can't go wrong with ball bearing.
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Obvious question what is your current time?
That is obviously addressed in his signature. :laugh:
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I think the slowboy turbos look great.I also deffinetly think supporting our own economy is also a good thing. I am a little wierded by the talk about not being able to get a larger chip for my vpc to run larger injectorsThus making it a $1000.00 piece of shit.
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For less than $1000 you could outfit your car with a standalone ecu to take over all engine control.
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I might as well add my thoughts here too, besides my email to you.
My turbo choices to drop a whole second easily would be:
- FP Green (or a "50 trim" variant)
- FP Red (or a "60-1" trim variant)
Why pay double for a GT turbo?
Fuel Control:
- DSMLink
- AEM EMS
*EDIT*: Cams: HKS 272 or Comp 101200
Misc:
- FMIC
- Supra or Whinebro fuel pump
- Adjustable FPR
- 720+ cc/min injectors
- external gate w/ dump or custom piping to route back in
If you just want to be in the 11s, larger 20Gs would fit the bill nicely.
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I forgot to mention Kinetic can get any of the turbos Slowboy carries.
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I second the bigger injectors.
Add a front mount. Doesn't have to be the huge one that most people use from Kinetic. They make smaller ones too, but if you can afford it that big one is a monster.
Weight reduction is a huge factor as well. Not sure how far along that path you are willing to go, but a CF hood, light battery, light wheels, and aluminum front and rear bumpers are a good start. If you are willing to strip the interior, you can save alot of weight. Did you do a light flywheel when you put in the ACT? Taller 1st gear in the tranny?
Are you traction limited yet? If so, some stickier tires?
I suggest getting rid of the VPC if you aren't able to use it.
Get an Eprom with a good chip with stutter box and no lift to shift along with some good timing and fuel tweaks, and that along with the SAFC should be good. Of course if you can afford it, get DSMLink.
Get a good adjustable fuel pressure regulator if you don't have it already.
If you had an Evo16g, I'd say leave that alone, but maybe with just the 16G, well you might want to go bigger. And if you are going fmic, you might as well get the pipes built for the different turbo while you are at it.
also, what gas are you running? 91? 94? C-16? I bet you could run more boost on your setup.
Also you can try water injection, then I KNOW you can run more boost ;)
I'm currently running 20psi on my 14b and Jason G is running over that on his.
Good luck and keep us posted.
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Guys I just got off the phone with Jarrod the sales manager at Buschur racing and he has a vpc chip for 660s and he figures that will be good for what I want. Now lets be honest will this be enough to get me to my mid 11 goal. Or will I need to go to bigger injectors and scrap the vpc all together and go dsm link. Personely I would like to keep my set up as is if i can.
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My turbo choices to drop a whole second easily would be:
- FP Green (or a "50 trim" variant)
- FP Red (or a "60-1" trim variant)
Why pay double for a GT turbo?
Because without a ball bearing centre section your car will accelerate like a bag of dicks, unless you want to drag race ALL THE TIME.
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Guys I just got off the phone with Jarrod the sales manager at Buschur racing and he has a vpc chip for 660s and he figures that will be good for what I want. Now lets be honest will this be enough to get me to my mid 11 goal. Or will I need to go to bigger injectors and scrap the vpc all together and go dsm link. Personely I would like to keep my set up as is if i can.
Do you want high, mid, or low 11's? All of those options make a HUGE difference.
You are a good driver, pretty much as good as Lowell with the consistent 1.7 60 foots, so I say if you want high 11's, run the 20G turbo with 660cc injectors. Lowell went 11.8 @ 120 with this setup.
If you want mid to low 11's, you need a bigger turbo than a 20G, and bigger injectors than 660's. Lowell used a Frank 3 and 720's (I believe) to run the 11.4 @ 124.
Or, if you want to save your money, keep your evo 16G, put in some 660cc injectors, run 22-25psi, and practice your shifting and launching. evo16G turbos @ 22-25psi are known to run 11.7-11.9 in the 1/4 mile (As proved by Mitch Delmer).
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Because without a ball bearing centre section your car will accelerate like a bag of dicks, unless you want to drag race ALL THE TIME.
*Edited to remove flaming comments.*
There was a fascinating comparison of turbo spool (lower RPMS until 15 PSI boost) and lag tests (higher RPMS until 15 PSI of boost) and the results are NOT what the "tooner" forums suggest at all.
For example, both the TD06 20G and a PTE "50 trim" had better spool profiles than either a GT12 OR a FP3052! The EVO 16G outspooled the other larger turbos including the 20G by a very large margin. Fascinating stuff.
The "50 trim" (FP Green et al.) was very similar to a 20G, and is much more efficient up top. The "60-1" trim has lousy spool characteristics, but could help Aaron hit low 11s very easily for half the cost of many ball bearing turbos.
Oh - and what Robin said. ;)
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Or, if you want to save your money, keep your evo 16G...
He has a regular (non EVO) 16G. Good turbo, but the compressor is far less efficient in the higher flow and boost maps. It is still possible to get a non EVO 16G into the 11s, but probably not at stock weight w/o nitrous.
I believe that Aaron doesn't want to drive a "tin can", but perhaps we can get him to change his mind. :twisted: :wink:
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There was a fascinating comparison of turbo spool (lower RPMS until 15 PSI boost) and lag tests (higher RPMS until 15 PSI of boost) and the results are NOT what the "tooner" forums suggest at all.
For example, both the TD06 20G and a PTE "50 trim" had better spool profiles than either a GT12 OR a FP3052! The EVO 16G outspooled the other larger turbos including the 20G by a very large margin. Fascinating stuff.
The "50 trim" (FP Green et al.) was very similar to a 20G, and is much more efficient up top. The "60-1" trim has lousy spool characteristics, but could help Aaron hit low 11s very easily for half the cost of many ball bearing turbos.
That's boost threshold, which is very dependant on other properties. If you compared the actual lag time, say during shifting gears, the results would probably be different. I have seen tests that I think were done well that show turbo lag characteristics on shifts to have BB center cartridges reach full boost close to 3 times faster in some instances when matched against a relating sleeve bearing cartridge, supressing as many variables as reasonably possible.
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Does BB spool up faster? Yes.
Is it worth the extra $1000 to buy a BB turbo for straight line racing? No.
In events like autox, yes it does help to buy a BB turbo, since you are constantly off and on the turbo, dropping in and out of boost, it does help to get back into boost ASAP before the next corner. However, in straight line racing, yes the BB will spool a bit faster, but thanks to things like anti-lag and keeping the revs up, you pretty much are in constant boost the whole time down the track. You are able to leave the line in boost, and keep the car in boost as long as you keep the revs up beyond the rpm in which you make max boost (for me this is 5000rpm @ 22psi).
Yes BB does spool up faster, but it is not as great as everyone makes it seem and does not help you that much in straight line racing. In Aaron's case, he wants to go fast in a straight line, and $1000 is better spent elsewhere than on a BB cartridge.
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I just wanted to let you guys know I realy apreciate your input. :D I value your oppinions and just want to make a good choice. I am starting to sway toward a 20g with an upgrade to 660 injectors and a matched chip for my vpc. Do you guys feel I should spend the dough and go external wastegate? If so any recomendations? and can I just weld a flange on my exhaust manifold? Any thoughts on porting or clipping the 20g Or do you think clipping it will create to much lag as I do spend a lot of time just cruising the roads on the island.
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All I'm trying to say is that if you're going to be driving your car anywhere besides the dragstrip (lets say work, 7-11, gas stations), and you don't want it to feel like a bag of shit before 4800 rpm, your best off with a BB turbo.
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I just wanted to let you guys know I realy apreciate your input. :D I value your oppinions and just want to make a good choice. I am starting to sway toward a 20g with an upgrade to 660 injectors and a matched chip for my vpc. Do you guys feel I should spend the dough and go external wastegate? If so any recomendations? and can I just weld a flange on my exhaust manifold? Any thoughts on porting or clipping the 20g Or do you think clipping it will create to much lag as I do spend a lot of time just cruising the roads on the island.
I think you should go external wastegate, just to save yourself from the headache of possible boost creap and blown motors as a result of internal gates (It has happened to some people running 20G turbos). You can weld a flange for an external wastegate onto your existing manifold, or I can sell you a 2g exhaust manifold with a tial flange welded on it which you can install, then all you have to buy is the wastegate. I would port the 20G, but I wouldn't bother clipping it, since it already flows a lot of air and you don't really want more lag.
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If you're getting a 20G with a td05h turbine side, then clipping can be beneficial at higher boost levels. And always port it.
On the other hand as Robin mentioned if it is a td06 turbine side the default configuration should suffice.
The td05h will probably give you a little better spool (from what I've read a healthy setup should spool by around 3800), whereas the td06 will give you more top end with a slower spool.
From reading the various forums I've come to the conclusion that although a large flapper internal gate along with porting is enough for some, many seem to have trouble with creep. Which is why I decided on an external setup.
I'm actually just in the process of installing mine (upgrading from a 16g as well although a small one), so I will let you know how it works out. It's a td05h turbine side, clipped 15 degrees and ported fairly heavily, with a 38mm tial wategate manifold mounted.
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Guys I notice that you can mount an external wastegate to the manifold or I see some mounted to the o2 housing whats preferred and why? and what one do you recomend for a guy running 660s and a 20 g
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Here's something fun.
A really good lift to shift time in a synchro'd manual tranny is 0.3 seconds.
3 gear changes x 0.3 seconds = 0.9 seconds almost a full second!
0.9 seconds of off throttle DEcellerating during a 1/4 mile run.
How long does a turbo take to respool and make power again after a shift? If one turbo happens to take 0.33 seconds longer to respool after a shift than another it will cost you a full second in the 1/4 mile all else being equal. Now generally the bigger turbo will make more power and it'll make up for some of that loss but still, it's something to keep in mind.
You can minimize some of that with NLTS/antilag and get the turbo back on boost faster. But keep in mind NLTS is hard on the tranny and a better spooling turbo with the same NLTS will still spool that much faster than a laggier turbo.
Don't tell me turbo lag isn't a factor in 1/4 mile times. :P
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From my understanding, the best position would be off the manifold at the collector. Unfortunately with our cast manifolds this is not easy. O2 Housing mounted is second as it still can vent all 4 exhaust pulses evenly, but still requires heavy porting of the wastegate hole in the turbine housing to work well. Third is manifold off one of the runners, usually the #1 and can be mounted fairly close to the collector, it will not vent the exhaust pulses 100% evenly, but is usually the cheapest and easiest way. From what I've read though, the differences in real world performance seem to be minimal
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If one turbo happens to take 0.33 seconds longer to respool after a shift than another it will cost you a full second in the 1/4 mile all else being equal.
It should be qualified that it'll cost a second of relatively less acceleration, not ET :).
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If one turbo happens to take 0.33 seconds longer to respool after a shift than another it will cost you a full second in the 1/4 mile all else being equal.
It should be qualified that it'll cost a second of relatively less acceleration, not ET :).
Good call, I overlooked that. During that time you will still be covering distance while you coast. However it's still a full second you are not accelerating.
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Anti-lag can correct that drag racing spool shift problem pretty well. If you're trying to figure out where to spend your money for a specific goal.
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I see some mounted to the o2 housing whats preferred and why? and what one do you recomend for a guy running 660s and a 20 g
Got a picture?
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Mike has articulated his desire for this thread to be closed.
Who am I to argue?
Locked until further notice.
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