Author Topic: DSM vs police vs the DSM curse  (Read 4544 times)

Offline Brett Haviland

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Re: DSM vs police vs the DSM curse
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2008, 10:19:29 pm »
Bullshit you were running 11 pounds of boost with two girls in the back.   You were crankin that shit up to 17 psi and pushin it to impress the ladies! 

11 pounds of boost doesn't melt pistons ;)
I like Colts.  Turbo Colts.

Offline Brett Haviland

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Re: DSM vs police vs the DSM curse
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2008, 10:21:21 pm »
i think he put a hole in his oil pan and then ran it dry on oil... 

Or maybe going WOT for that long with a quarter tank of gas didn't work out so well?  Ran it out of gas?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 10:24:47 pm by Brett Haviland »
I like Colts.  Turbo Colts.

Offline Shane Sawatzki

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Re: DSM vs police vs the DSM curse
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2008, 01:21:22 am »
maybe the owner of the car had shit gas in it...and running it WOT for that long caused alot of detonation and melted his spark plug electrodes. LOL this IS definetly possible. I did it. lol on the way to work i decided to be a nutcase one day and a launched off a red, and wot thru 1 , 2 , 3 up to 6 grand and next thing i noe, the car is misfiring and i was freaking out. as soon as I gave it any more than a quarter throttle it sputtered and missed. got to work and i took a lucky guess thinking " it just feels like the spark plugs arent firing under load anymore" and when i pulled them out, 2 of them had the metal "L" shaped part melted away. my fault for cheapin out on gas for those few weeks.  :-\
2011 Range Rover Sport SC - wife’s daily
1995 Range Rover Classic - restoration project
1990 Mitsubishi Delica - my daily
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Offline Brett Haviland

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Re: DSM vs police vs the DSM curse
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2008, 05:01:17 pm »
ohhh now that just makes you look like a idiot!
I like Colts.  Turbo Colts.

Offline Shane Sawatzki

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Re: DSM vs police vs the DSM curse
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2008, 05:15:00 pm »
ohhh now that just makes you look like a idiot!

*sigh* :( I noe.  :'( lol...like i said my fault. wont do that again
2011 Range Rover Sport SC - wife’s daily
1995 Range Rover Classic - restoration project
1990 Mitsubishi Delica - my daily
92 Skyline GTR - weekend warrior
93 Skyline GTR - wife’s weekend warrior
91 Skyline GTS-4 - Sold
91 Tsi AWD - Sold

Offline Jess Atendido

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Re: DSM vs police vs the DSM curse
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2008, 09:40:03 pm »
maybe the should have DSMs as cop cars instead of those damn 5.0L
and a t25 will say, in a wee girlie voice "I am too small, please put me on a D16"

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Offline Chad Giffen

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Re: DSM vs police vs the DSM curse
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2008, 10:40:11 pm »
ya it should be the other way around.....


"stolen 5.0L mustang ....      no worries, the cops have brought in the interceptor car...      its turbocjarged and its AWD!"


for real though...   they couldnt use turbo engines as interceptor cars for the point mentioned above...   if you have a chase for more than 30min at WOT...   shits gonna get fucked up in the turbo car as EGT continue to climb.
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Offline Mark Guthrie

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Re: DSM vs police vs the DSM curse
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2008, 11:20:23 pm »
ya it should be the other way around.....


"stolen 5.0L mustang ....      no worries, the cops have brought in the interceptor car...      its turbocjarged and its AWD!"


for real though...   they couldnt use turbo engines as interceptor cars for the point mentioned above...   if you have a chase for more than 30min at WOT...   shits gonna get fucked up in the turbo car as EGT continue to climb.
actually thats untrue, they use turbo charged volvo's for police cars in europe.....
silly honda's, street lamps are for seeing, not hugging!

1991 talon tsi awd (DB UICP,Greddy type S BOV,FMIC, Steel 3"intake, 3" exhaust, BB MBC, 14PSI)

Offline Brett Haviland

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Re: DSM vs police vs the DSM curse
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2008, 08:58:26 pm »
and rally cars are turbo two, and race cars!  some of them get beaten on for hours and hours on end.
I like Colts.  Turbo Colts.

Offline Mike Schmid

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Re: DSM vs police vs the DSM curse
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2008, 09:10:13 pm »
There's nothing inherently unreliable about turbos.  That's just left-over bad reputation from the '80s when they started more commonly using them in passenger cars. 

You need only look as far as the nearest highway and the biggest things on that highway that are turbo diesel semis.  They'll run 30+psi WOT for 45 minutes at a time pulling 100,000lbs+ up some bigger hills.  Sustained duty 400-650hp is SOP.  If 45minutes of WOT isn't long enough go to the harbour, guy in town just dropped a 450hp Volvo Penta Diesel in a boat, it's turbo and it'll run hard for hours on end.  Still not enough go to Alberta and check out the stationary industrial motors out in the oil patch.  Got to see one up close that was a V16, 122L, that's 7.6liters per piston, twin turbo on natural gas but will also run gas or diesel.  Over 1000hp and runs WOT 24/7/365. 
DSMs - fun when they run

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Offline Chad Giffen

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Re: DSM vs police vs the DSM curse
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2008, 10:02:11 pm »
ur right mike...   but your referring to diesel.


The way gas burns and cylinder temps for gas engines are WAYYYYY  different than diesel.

Diesel needs extremely hot chamber temperatures to heat the fuel so that it will spontaneously combust in a timely fashion during cylinder compression. Thus, running diesels at higher temperatuers in the chamber is better.

This is the oppoisite for gas engines. A spark causes the ignition, not compression like diesel, and so cylinder temps must be kept down otherwise gas will spontaneuosly combust to early before the psark and then engine will ruuin itself.


Diesel and gas are way different when it comes to turbocharging. You cant even compare the two really.

If you have an EGT gauge on your engine...   just watch the cylinder temps start to rise at WOT as you go up a hill. If you pinned it for like 20 min and maybe evn as low as 5 min under serious load ...   shit would start fucking up and you'd start to get misfire, knock ..  the whole deal.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 10:05:10 pm by Chad Giffen »
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Offline Mike Schmid

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Re: DSM vs police vs the DSM curse
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2008, 12:07:01 am »
Uhh... yeah, I know the difference between gas and diesel.  A turbo is a turbo, it doesn't care what kind of fuel you're burning or even if you're burning fuel, they work just as well on pressurized steam.  The part numbers and sizing are different because of differing exhaust volumes and that but the way they it and the factors affecting it stay the same regardless of fuel used.  A tuned up diesel will run just as hot or hotter in the EGT as a gas engine will, you need only look up diesel pickup tuning to know that.  Why can't they be compared?  Hot, fast moving gas goes into the turbine, the turbine turns the heat, pressure and velocity into kinetic energy and cooler slower gas leaves.  That kinetic energy spins up the compressor wheel on the turbine side and draws air in and heats and compresses it.  Where's the difference?   

The concern brought up previously was that turbos aren't reliable enough for severe duty and I'm merely pointing out that they are more than reliable enough these days and my examples prove it regardless of being installed on engines that don't neccesarily use gasoline as a fuel.  As long as parts are well matched and the state of tune is reasonable enough they're as reliable as any naturally aspirated motor ever will be.  What kills a turbo motor like you describe isn't the turbo or the fact that the turbo even exists, it's a bad tune.  Any condition leading to knock or preignition is what kills motors.  It can raise the pressures and subsequently temperatures in a motor exponentially higher than what is normal and quickly expose whatever the weakest link is.  A high compression NA motor with lots of cam and a lean tune would knock and die the same way, it's just that having a turbo means there's a quick and easy way of screwing up the tune on the motor and providing more air than the fuel system can handle causing a lean out. 

Back to rally cars too, the only reason turbos aren't used on every type of race car is generally rule restrictions.  In some drag classes guys use nitrous or supercharging when they could use turbos only because they don't know enough about them and use what the know instead.  Top fuel nitro drag cars tried turbocharging but actually made too much power so they stick with the blowers, making power isn't the problem on those cars with 6000+ on tap, putting it to the track is where the racing is.  Now that's not even so much a problem because they've shortened the 1/4 mile by 320' on some tracks, but that's beside the point.  Formula 1 has turbocharging in its past too, there too the cars were too fast and too hard to regulate and the rules were changed.  NASCAR is one of the few series that hasn't tried turbos, at least not as far as I've ever heard, but then they still use carburetors which is soo last century  ::)
DSMs - fun when they run

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'93 TSi AWD - 195bhp
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Offline Drew Sale

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Re: DSM vs police vs the DSM curse
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2008, 01:23:55 am »
hey, whats wrong with carbs?
I dont care what anyone says about my car. It only had 1 error code.

Offline Chad Giffen

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Re: DSM vs police vs the DSM curse
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2008, 12:32:46 pm »
I see what you are saying mike, but I think you are kind of missing the point im tryiong to get across.


1) As far as reliability issues, you cant run a turbo WOT on a gas engine 24/7 like you can on a diesel engine. Thus making turbos not as reliable on gas engines.

2) For your reference to "a bad tune"...    it doesnt mater how good your tune is on a gas engine...   if you pin it to WOT and hold it there for 20min, you WILL get knock and misfire etc.

The reason for this is because of the "heating value" of fuel.

You ever watch those you tube videos of turbo engines on the dyno who run WOT and the manifolds start to turn bright red as they heat up to extreme temperatures?

Well if you continue to hold the engine at WOT like that...    heat will find its way over to the intake side and raise the temps of the intake charge going into the engine.

From what you are thinking...    this shouldnt matter because the ECU will compensate fuel for the lower density and higher temp. This may be true, but it is irrelavent in preventing knock and misfire.

Again, by holding a gas engine at WOT, the intake charge will begin to climb in temperature. Recall that gasoline, like diesel, will spontaneously combust at a certain temperature known as the "heating value" for that fuel. So as the intake temps raise, the gasoline gets closer and closer to spontaneously igniting before the spark plug fires causing knock.

3) Rally cars dont hold the engine at WOT for long periods of time at all because they go through corners, let of the throttle etc.

Race cars only hold WOT for the 1/4 mile.

Indy cars are a little more extreme but they go through lots of cornners too wehen they let off the throttle.

If you think those mitsubishi drivers who do the sahara race dont watch there EGT's as they lay a beat down to the engine...   think again...   its their bible to winning that race.


I am talking about holding WOT for a solid 10-20min. You can do taht on a diesel because you want the fuel to heat up so it will spontaneously combust....     but not gas.


« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 12:37:31 pm by Chad Giffen »
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Offline Mike Schmid

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Re: DSM vs police vs the DSM curse
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2008, 10:50:28 pm »
Sorry but I still have to respectfully disagree.  I think you could absolutely run WOT 24/7 on gasoline if you built the engine right.  Like I said before it's all about well matched parts and a reasonable state of tune.  A reasonable state of tune on any continuous duty motor is far more conservative than on something like a car and maybe that's where the disagreement is coming from.  If you look at the motor on a semi it's huge, all the parts are big, and the hp is relatively low for the size of the motor.  The radiator and intercooler are giant and that all contributes to the reliability.  

Again, before I said it takes a good tune and matched parts, a typical car can't run WOT for long no matter what kind of engine it has or fuel it uses because they're not designed for continuous duty.  You can only keep it going so long as you keep it in balance, and not rotating assembly dynamic balance but energy balance.  Again, maybe that's where we're missing each other.  Most of the energy released from the fuel in an internal combustion engine is heat and that heat will destroy the motor no matter what the fuel.  So to run steady at a certain power level you will need to reject all the excess heat and you need parts that are sized to do that.  Car's can't do it because a car making 300hp doesn't have enough radiator or intercooler or oil cooling etc to reject 300hp's worth of heat.  

You can get away with high specific power levels in partial duty stuff like a car because you can absorb a lot of that heat for a short period of time without adverse affect the reject it when you're 'off duty' again.  So I absolutely agree that held at WOT a car engine will destroy itself but that applies to more than just turbo gas motors, NA, gas, diesel, turbo diesel, propane whatever, they're all the same because they don't have the supporting subsystems designed for continuous duty.  You should never ever see 20 minutes WOT in a car so they aren't equipped to deal with it.  

Fuel type still doesn't matter though.  Also make no mistake that diesels can somehow run WOT forever either because they can't unless they're designed for it.  Diesel pickups will absolutly melt down if run too hard for too long.  The chipped out trucks will melt in a hurry if run hard for very long because the EGTs will get right up there into the danger zone.  It's not real likely with a stock one because they're designed to survive the usage a pickup is likely to see and the same goes for turbo gas cars.  I don't think there's anything about gasoline that would make it impossible to run in a continuous duty application.  Certainly not being spark ignited because just about every stationary engine/compressor combo with an internal combustion motor out in the oil patch will be a turbocharged, spark ignited, and run on natural gas WOT all day every day.  There is no reason a spark ignited, turbocharged gasoline engine couldn't be built to be as reliable as any other, even in the most severe of heavy duty applications which is continuous duty industrial use.  

I looked for just such a motor but couldn't find one, but I think that has more to do with diesel simply being a more suitable fuel for heavy duty applications because heavy duty motors have heavy parts and those heavy parts exert huge forces and can only rev so high before they come apart.  Diesel burns nice and slow and makes good power at low RPMs so it's a good combo.  NG is as close as you'll probably get to gasoline in heavy duty industrial applications because most of the time then engine is running a compressor that's pumping the stuff to the supply line so it's easiest and most cost effective to just take some of that to fuel the motor.  

What it all comes down to though is there's nothing inherently unreliable about turbocharging or gasoline fueled engines or turbocharged gas engines.  
DSMs - fun when they run

'92 TSi AWD AT - 180bhp
'93 TSi AWD - 195bhp
'90 Laser RS NT - *sold*
'71 Camaro - *sold*