The Epic decision for suspension for the 1g AWD ***Updated*** need advice

[Chad Giffen]

Great Input so far. Thx guys, keep it coming.

I have heard a myth you can buy 2G rear koni's and make them fit on a 1G if you fab the brake line brackets. The stock ride height of the Koni Yellows for 2G are apparently lower which is good anyways if you use lowering springs.

Again just a myth. I found it on Dsm talk.

Dan, I may take you up on that offer. Thanks.


Chad

[Chad Giffen]

Part of me wants to get ballsy and try and fit EVO VIII coilovers on my 1g. From reading threads, the rears will fit like a glove. The fronts may require some modification, but I think I could get them to work. I think the worst of it would be fab brake line brackets, use spacers for the strut mount and maybe a different upper pillow block. The stock pillow block has 3 prongs tho, like the 1g. Maybe.....      just maybe.




These are fully height adjustable like the tein flex coilovers. Fuck ya.  


Some notes I found here about the conversion for EVO VIII to 1g coilovers....   http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/road-course-autocross/386826-kw-evo-8-9-coilovers-1g.html

I looked into this a several years ago with Ohlins.

Rear:
The main differences are the rear lower mounts are different which can be overcome by a new lower mount.
The Evo has an arc at the base of the shock like a some Honda's were the 1g is a single point connection. The JIC's are the design I was going to follow but instead of a rubber bushing use a spherical bearing. I figured most of us who would consider this wouldn't care for the compliance for a rubber based bushing.
The Evo rear sits about two inchs higher (installed height) than the 1G when setup. This really isn't an issue if the lower coilover mount is made right. My JIC coilvers bottom out before I can get the car as low as I want so you need to consider if the shock length used on the Evo is too long to start.
The rear upper mounts are the same but should be divorced from the spring because of the angle to the spindle.

Front:
Main issue is the lower mount which really isn't a huge problem. The lower coilover mount spacing where it connects to the spindle is a little thicker than the 1G. I can't find my old notes but i wanted to say somewhere between 1/16 to 1/8 inch. Was just going to make a stainless spacer to make up the difference..again not a huge issue and if anything would add some caster to the setup anyway. I can't remember if the bolt center to center was the same or not. I think there was a little modification needed there also but again I can't find my notes. The bolts that went threw the lower mount were also smaller on the 1G.
Top mounts aren't an issue since you would just buy a separate set from Tein, DMS, or JIC unless you were making your own. I would prefer the DMS upper mounts as they have caster adjustment.

In the end if you really feel you need the extra adjustment for road racing then it can be done but 2-way coilovers aren't going to make older cars handle like newer ones with the same components. Single way coilover eliminate confusion add simplicity and give you most of what you need. With race teams and competition the cost of the last remaining percentage you will gain in adjustment from 2-3way coilovers can be justified. The more adjustment the harder the dial in and the longer it will take to find what works on the car. One of the engineers w/Ohlins kinda gave me a reality check with that one so the JIC's are still on the car today. Ohlins said they would love to make coilovers for older cars like these but they need to sell a certain number to justify it as with any business as it's always about the money.

My 2cents, but cool to see you guys are talking about this. Has anyone just considered DMS or Hotbits. Both already make 2-4way adjustable coilovers?

[John Hartman]

I'm glad Cam and Dan got on here, those guys do more of this than any of us.

As for the damper issue with Koni no longer making rears for us, well if the rear Evo struts fit, there you go.  GC/Koni yellow up front and Evo out back.

I will echo one thing that Shane says too. Get a setup with double adjustability.  For the reasons he said.   My JIC setup has this.  yes maybe the damping is not quite as good as Bilstein or Koni, but its as good as anything else out there for 1g awd cars within the limits of regular guy money(no Penske setup on my salary).  But that extra adjustability of the coil over is excellent.  You can ajust ride height independantly of spring preload/tension.

Think of it like a standalone vs an SAFC.  Yes you can run bigger injectors with an SAFC, but as you take more fuel out, you add more timing, so soon you cannot take any more out or you have way too much timing.  With a single adjustable coil over, you can lower the car, but it gets stiffer and stiffer as you go lower, to the point of rediculousness.  As well, soon you have no more travel either.

With the standalone you can add/subtract fuel and timing independantly of each other.  With the double adjustable C/O you can raise/lower and stiffen/soften independadly of each other too.

[Brett Haviland]

Just FYI.  KYB makes the OEM struts that come stock on DSM's.  They are a Gr2 equivilent.


I dont have a lot of experience with aftermarket stuff on DSM's...  but i do on my 93 colt (fully independant at all 4 corners)

The best "street" setup that i currently still run is KYB G2R w/ eibach Sportline.  a nice 1.8-2" lowing.... still rides a lot like stock.

[Shane Sawatzki]

my bad I didnt know that you couldnt get the flex for a 1g dsm ... I vote for evo suspension with full height adjustability! 

[CamWeiss]

I've got one concern with the Evo suspension and adapting other parts to fit our cars - We don't have the same weight, weight distribution, or ride height as the others do.
This means you're starting out with a setup where the damper AND spring may be wrong for the car. Will it work? Sure. Will it work WELL? To be determined...

I think the 2g rear Koni damper would be 'close enough', if you could make it fit properly. The fact that it's shorter in the first place is a plus, as when you go looooow you're not running in the dampers' best performance range.

I'll also add Swaybars to the mix... I'm not sure what you've got now, Chad, but I'd highly recommend a bigger rear sway bar. The front bar in AWD's is sufficient, and adding a big rear bar helps greatly in dialing out the understeer.

[John Hartman]

+1 on the sway bar for sure, and some poly bushings, and a rear strut brace and get rid of the rear active toe leftovers too.

[Chad Giffen]

Ok so with respect to Shanes comment on the flex coilovers, where you can adjust the ride height independent of spring compression, I think the Ksport coilover gt's do the same.

link is here:

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/partdetails/K_Sport/Suspension/Coilovers/GT_Pro_Damper_System/14592

If thats the case, I have found my new suspension.

Am I right to assume sucj with these coilovers?

Thx

[Shane Sawatzki]

yes the ksports look to be full height adjustable, the 3rd adjuster ring on the shock below the 2 for the spring. I didnt look into the ksports to find that out.. i just knew about the tein flex.

[CamWeiss]

I ordered parts for mine this past week. Koni Yellow, Ground Control sleeves and camber plates. New ball joints. Might go with new tie rod ends as well.

If you'd like to wait & see what mine's like, then feel free. It may well be a few weeks before things are happening, though - Shipping from states, etc.

[Chad Giffen]

Sounds good cam. Keep us updated. I'd be down for checking it out.

What are u doing about the rears? Inserts into stock damper?

[CamWeiss]

Rear will be KYB AGX.

[Lowell Foo]

For what it's worth, the K sports are by far the lightest coil overs due to having aluminum housings.  Would be cool to put high quality internals inside...

Compared to AGXs and lowering springs, my Megans were about 22lbs lighter in total. 

[Zach Holt]

the lightest you can find are Ksports. the best you can find are tien ss's and you can get them for 900 bucks used. and they last a very long time.

ps im running tiens and front and rear "bad ass sway" and strut bars. thumbs up.

[daniel Dee]

i have a pair of rear koni yellows shocks for 1g.. but one of them is blown (seal is gone). I understand koni can repair it...I don't know if it is worth much..