Author Topic: Stalled Car and engine would not Crank ~!!!  (Read 12254 times)

Offline John Hartman

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Re: Stalled Car and engine would not Crank ~!!!
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2009, 01:14:36 pm »
I don't think you have any other problems except the starter.

The brushes or contacts are probably worn, or burned in one spot, or the armature is worn/burned.

Replace the starter or get it rebuilt and leave the rest alone.

The reason why the starter had no issues when tested was that it was not stopped at that bad spot.
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Offline daniel Dee

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Re: Stalled Car and engine would not Crank ~!!!
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2009, 02:04:58 pm »
Sy!!! You really do over work the problem...I don't have that type of patience

You can test all of my car electrical anytime...I have lots of minor glitches.

92 AWD TSI 5spd<br />Built motor ,AEM EMS, Arc2 cdi 1050cc&1000cc Staged injectors Billet S366 T4,top mount manifold.666 AWHP@39psi (RG Dyno 2010). New mods E85, BF cams, 72mm turbo, 70mm throttle body />90 TSI (gone), 95 TSI 5 spd sold, 93 Mazda 5sp(sold), 97 Acura 5spd Vtec 99 Audi A4 quad 5sp 2018 Civicturbo 6sp ktuner

Offline Sy Haw Wong

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Re: Stalled Car and engine would not Crank ~!!!
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2009, 05:11:35 pm »
Sy!!! You really do over work the problem...I don't have that type of patience

You can test all of my car electrical anytime...I have lots of minor glitches.



Haha yeah I do over analyze my problems, which is a good and bad thing, cause then I stress too much on perfection of the right answers.

But all my problems/anwsers are by the books though.  I am still pretty new at car maintenence, and every step is a learning curve for me.

Your car has been rewired in many different areas plus modifications, so it would be harder to pinpoint the problems.  Regardless I can always pitch in some help when needed ~  ;)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 05:50:21 pm by Sy Haw Wong »

Offline Sy Haw Wong

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Re: Stalled Car and engine would not Crank ~!!!
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2009, 10:44:47 pm »
So I replaced the starter with a brand new Bosch starter.  Thanks to the help of both Jason and Josh for helping.  Thanks to Patrick Woo also for helping with checking the car's interior wiring.

But the car got worse this time.  It now shows the same symptoms.  It would not crank.  This is very odd as the starter is new.
We can still push start the car but the car itself would not crank.

I felt kinda bad because what I thought was an easy swap and fix...I ended up spending a majority of the time trying to trouble shoot the symptoms.  We ended up starting on Josh's turbo late, but it got done eventually lookin pretty nice.  (My apologies Josh).

Any help or suggestions would be great. 

Thanks.

Offline Jason Harwood

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Re: Stalled Car and engine would not Crank ~!!!
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2009, 11:23:03 pm »
I spent too much time on your car :P
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94' MX6 V6 - 13.9 @ 96.7MPH
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Offline Sy Haw Wong

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Re: Stalled Car and engine would not Crank ~!!!
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2009, 11:53:28 pm »
I spent too much time on your car :P

Yeah I know.  Very sorry about that.  I felt bad, as a simple job like this didn't turn out the way it should but wasted all of our time.  Not to mention my old starter may not be the culprit, now that the new starter does not crank with no power as well.

I am very baffled.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2009, 11:55:56 pm by Sy Haw Wong »

Offline daniel Dee

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Re: Stalled Car and engine would not Crank ~!!!
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2009, 07:34:02 am »
Has your old starter been tested outside of the car??? Day off today so I am somewhat available??
92 AWD TSI 5spd<br />Built motor ,AEM EMS, Arc2 cdi 1050cc&1000cc Staged injectors Billet S366 T4,top mount manifold.666 AWHP@39psi (RG Dyno 2010). New mods E85, BF cams, 72mm turbo, 70mm throttle body />90 TSI (gone), 95 TSI 5 spd sold, 93 Mazda 5sp(sold), 97 Acura 5spd Vtec 99 Audi A4 quad 5sp 2018 Civicturbo 6sp ktuner

Offline John Hartman

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Re: Stalled Car and engine would not Crank ~!!!
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2009, 07:56:05 am »
shit, sorry to hear that Sy Haw.  NORMALLY, with your symptoms its time for a starter.

The next thing to check (if you are getting power to the starter and the signal to start to the starter) is the starter cable itself, the big one.  If this gets corroded internally(any green crud in the wiring at either end) it can't carry enough current and will do this.  We had a Ranger at work bite us on this. Its what happens when you are rushed in your diagnosis.
91 Eagle Talon TSi 5spd awd.  GT-12, TriFlow Cams, 850s, Tial, JIC, Jackal, sticky rubber.
86 Merkur XR4Ti 5spd, rwd, turbo, 91,381km.  Original paint, heated leather. intercooled, big VAM, Full 3" exhaust, Cossie sway bar, 16" tires.
06 Mazdaspeed6 6spd awd, DISI turbo, heated leather HIDs, Corksport, Cobb, Konig, Centric...
2018 VW Golf Alltrack turbo Tornado Red, 6mt, some free mods

Offline Sy Haw Wong

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Re: Stalled Car and engine would not Crank ~!!!
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2009, 11:27:34 am »
shit, sorry to hear that Sy Haw.  NORMALLY, with your symptoms its time for a starter.

The next thing to check (if you are getting power to the starter and the signal to start to the starter) is the starter cable itself, the big one.  If this gets corroded internally(any green crud in the wiring at either end) it can't carry enough current and will do this.  We had a Ranger at work bite us on this. Its what happens when you are rushed in your diagnosis.

Thanks John.

I will check all the mentioned items above.  I am going to try and rule out the cable connection first.  Positive and negative. 

I read also if the starter was poorly grounded or did not have a proper connection it also will not start.

Second might be the ignition switch system that maybe the culprit at this point.

I don't think there would be any factory anti-theft device that would be preventing this also....

I am not too worried.  If this new starter works, then I am just going to keep it and eat the cost.  I am just looking forward to having a starting car instead.

Has your old starter been tested outside of the car??? Day off today so I am somewhat available??

Yes Dan.  The old starter was tested outside of the car after.  It worked.  But unfortunately we didn't test the new starter (think we maybe should).  Bosch starters reverses their terminals for the power on their models.  So I can't even crawl under the car and see the connections like i could before with the Mitsubishi starter.  I may have to take it out again to test it.  But will need an extra hand to help cause I can't hold the starter in the proper position while installing it back also.  If you could give me a call today.  Any help would be much appreciated.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 11:31:41 am by Sy Haw Wong »

Offline John Hartman

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Re: Stalled Car and engine would not Crank ~!!!
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2009, 11:36:44 am »
put a test light on the starter terminal, the big one and touch the other end to ground.  This should be good and bright even with the key out of the car.  If its not lit or is dim(compare it to the light across the battery terminals) there is a problem with the cable connections, the cable or the ground.  Rarely the ground as the starter is grounded to the transmission/engine by big bolts.  It can be the main battery ground cable however or the engine ground(s).

Second, put the test light ground connection on the starter bolt, or other bellhousing bolt, the while touching the test light probe to the small starter bolt, have someone try to crank the car.  When and only when they have the key in the start position should this light, but it should light up then. 

You can also test the power cable by putting the test light onto the ground and touching it to the big bolt again, and it still should light.  But now, you will have to have someone try to crank it again.  If it goes noticably dimmer, the cable has too high a resistance due to corrosion, a large pinch etc.  I will dim slighty, but if it really dims out, thats your problem.

If you get no light when you touch the big cable, its not connected to the battery.

if you get no light on the small cable while the key is in the cranking position, there is no signal getting from the key to the starter.  If the light lights when you have the test light on the small bolt on the starter, and the key is in cranking position, you don't have to worry about the ignition cylinder, the ignition switch, all the wiring from there to the starter, the alarm or anything else.

When I originally posted about replacing the starter, I had assumed you had done these basic tests, and I apologise if that caused you to buy a starter needlessly.
91 Eagle Talon TSi 5spd awd.  GT-12, TriFlow Cams, 850s, Tial, JIC, Jackal, sticky rubber.
86 Merkur XR4Ti 5spd, rwd, turbo, 91,381km.  Original paint, heated leather. intercooled, big VAM, Full 3" exhaust, Cossie sway bar, 16" tires.
06 Mazdaspeed6 6spd awd, DISI turbo, heated leather HIDs, Corksport, Cobb, Konig, Centric...
2018 VW Golf Alltrack turbo Tornado Red, 6mt, some free mods

patrickWoo

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Re: Stalled Car and engine would not Crank ~!!!
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2009, 08:00:04 pm »
we had exactly the same conversation before when my car didn't start. Turns out some odd harness was unplugged.

$5 buys that the problem is inside the cockpit and not under the hood lmao.

Syhaw you said you were going to call me I haven't heard from you the whole day.

Offline daniel Dee

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Re: Stalled Car and engine would not Crank ~!!!
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2009, 08:09:31 pm »
Dropped by to remove starter...(from topside)..
Noticed solenoid wired has disconnected..(reconnected).
Placed starter on Battery to test with all factory wires connected....
Ground to batt was connected via jumper cable...
Starter did work when activated by key in ignition...
Starter was return to location..
Had to go,,, Left Sy to connect all the little things eg EGR,,,water lines etec.


« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 08:11:23 pm by daniel Dee »
92 AWD TSI 5spd<br />Built motor ,AEM EMS, Arc2 cdi 1050cc&1000cc Staged injectors Billet S366 T4,top mount manifold.666 AWHP@39psi (RG Dyno 2010). New mods E85, BF cams, 72mm turbo, 70mm throttle body />90 TSI (gone), 95 TSI 5 spd sold, 93 Mazda 5sp(sold), 97 Acura 5spd Vtec 99 Audi A4 quad 5sp 2018 Civicturbo 6sp ktuner

Offline Sy Haw Wong

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Re: Stalled Car and engine would not Crank ~!!!
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2009, 08:23:53 pm »
we had exactly the same conversation before when my car didn't start. Turns out some odd harness was unplugged.

$5 buys that the problem is inside the cockpit and not under the hood lmao.

Syhaw you said you were going to call me I haven't heard from you the whole day.

Sorry Patrick.  You owe me $5 ~ haha  :D

Yeah I was gonna call you today, but Dan Dee dropped by to help out with the investigating.  But I will call you next week cause I think we forgot to plug the power or something back in to the stereo.  It does not power on.  

Anyways.  We did a long route disassemble (battery, battery tray, throttle body, EGR) to get to the starter without jacking.  Turns out Jason Harwood's joke turned out to be true.  The black terminal connector came off.  What happened was because the Bosch terminals were reversed towards the wall/roof of the manifold, when we tried to twist it into place, the connector got bent into a 90 degree angle, and the clip fell off when it hit the manifold.

We tested the starter in a ghetto style with the battery wire up before putting it back in, and cranked it from inside the car.  It works.

After I zip tied the black connector to the other screw on terminal to better hold it in place just in case it tries to break off again.  When we installed it back in, the same thing happened...the black connector pin got bent 90 degrees.  This time it was still plugged in.  After I put my hand inside and gave it a good tug just to ensure its not loose.  It was held in place this time.  So I am glad and left it as is.

It got too dark before I could put back the throttle body (was also cleaning the TB since its out might as well).  So the car is not back together and running at the moment.  I will not make this an official solve until everything is placed back in and works fine.

Sy Haw

Thanks Dan Dee for taking your time today to drop by and help out.  Learned a few things about taking out the TB etc. too.
Also, thanks for offering your assistance also Patrick.  But since, we started out and found what the main possible problem was, I figured it wasn't necessary for you to come up from Richmond.

patrickWoo

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Re: Stalled Car and engine would not Crank ~!!!
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2009, 10:03:48 pm »
Well it's all good that it worked out.

In my F20C my friend did this stupid prank on me and pulled the starter relay wire out (the tiny one) and I fumbled around to find it...

I had ppl push starting it too lol....and then I punched that dude in the kidney for it. Luckily that wire can be reached by......slightly bending over over the left strut tower and it's in plain sight.

Yup hondas, they thought it out. *flame suit on and running away*

And you, my friend, need to stop making these Automotive 101 mistakes.... Not testing it fresh when the new item is installed is not cool.

Can you borrow me the starter to make some measurements? I wanna see if the 6A12 starter is the same as the 4G63...It might be but I'm not so sure.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 10:07:44 pm by patrickWoo »

Offline Jason Harwood

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Re: Stalled Car and engine would not Crank ~!!!
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2009, 06:50:54 am »
hahaha

Are you effin serious (well I kinda was when I was joking about it)
I hooked up all the wires to the started and went top side to thread the 2 bolts in, Sy went under to hold it up.
Then we ended up reversing positions because he couldnt get it to line up.

At some point in transition it must have popped off, lol.

Atleast I was still right, right?

lol
88' MX6 Turbo - 14.2 @ 97.51MPH
94' MX6 V6 - 13.9 @ 96.7MPH
93' Civic Turbo - 14.7 @ 90MPH (bad tune)
90' Civic SI - Auto-X Machine
97' Eclipse GSX 13.6 @ 105MPH
96' Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo
97' Acura EL 14.5 @ 98MPH
'02 Lexus IS300 15.125 @ 91MPH
97' CR-V Winter Beater.
04' WRB WRX STI