Starting Issues (Timing? AEM CAL file issues?)

[Ryan Coft]

I think the CAS that I have (bought it in unknown condition) is screwed. Wondering if someone has another CAS i could give a shot. Here's my thinking (if you care to read)

Pertinent Details:
- Optima Red-top battery, relocated to the trunk.
- 4Ga wire running from trunk to switch (behind taillight), to starter, then bridges off to power the fusebox, etc. Alternator runs back to the switch, powering the battery when the switch is open, everything dead when the switch is closed (as it's supposed to be).
- Green Top CAS
- AEM EMS (v1.19, CAL file is functional and from my old build, same car, new parts though and i know nothing is ever the same), 5 bar MAP and AIT w/ AEM Wideband

The long story:

Trying to start the car (Fresh build, new parts), new optima redtop for a battery, car seems to be cranking over ok, albeit a little slow. It's hiccuping once, not coming close to starting though. After 3-4 attempts to start it the battery is dying, shows 12v and drops to 7-8 volts as soon as you turn it over and you get maybe one rotation out of the motor before the starter is out of power. Not a big deal, figured it was the battery (redtops should crank that car over for at least 30 minutes straight if everything is working). That was last weekend. So I took it back to Mopac and got a new one during the week, apparently the last one had a bad cell.

This weekend i'm at it again. Just to explain thoroughly, between last weekend and this weekend i have; re-wired my fuel injectors, installed an AIT sensor and installed an AEM Wideband (non-gauge style). I throw the battery in, go to crank it over and she's cranking like before, albeit a little slow, for the first few revolutions. This time with the wideband and AIT it sounds like it's catching, not quite there though. After 4-5 attempts to turn it over it's doing what the last damned battery did. Shows 11.5v-12v, turn it over and it shows 5v-6v and wont turn more than once. So i decided hell, lets jump this thing. I jump the battery to another car, try it, same thing. Let it charge for 2 minutes, try it again, get a couple of rotations, same thing.

So I decide screw this, i'm tired of fighting with this thing and disconnect the jumper cables. Give it another shot, and for whatever reason (typical DSM...) it turns over, and its turning over hard and fast. Great right? Sure... but now I have absolutely no catching whatsoever. Not even a hiccup or studder or a sign it's trying to start. I have fuel for sure, i can smell it. So at this point i'm either missing spark, or timing. (holy trinity of starting a car right?)

Spark is coming from a COP setup, came off of a running car so i know it's fine. Timing is the most likely culprit i believe, leading me to the CAS. I think there's a possibility that it wasn't all caused by the battery dropping in voltage, it almost seems like the motor was binding and now is spinning freely. I wouldn't attribute that much friction to new piston rings (yes, gapped them properly), but if the CAS i had was seized (or seized after i put it in) that could explain why the motor was difficult to turn (although, you'd think that the CAS wouldn't put up much of a fight, or if it did it would be a short fight). The cams still line up, alt and ps belts are turning over as normal, nothing is out of the ordinary.

Thoughts are welcomed, or if someone near-ish to Langley has a spare (working) 1g CAS i can borrow it would narrow my troubleshooting. Normally i'd troubleshoot it myself but at this point i'm in a bind to get the car finished and out of the garage (house is being put up for sale). Thoughts are welcomed, sometimes two heads are better than one.

[Jason Harwood]

Timing?

Is the only thing that pops into my mind.

[Marke Bailey]

I think I have a spare CAS kicking around.

Are you sure the cas is in the right position? not 180* out?  nuts are tight? adj. cam gears at 0?
that's all I got for now.

[Ryan Coft]

Are you sure the cas is in the right position? not 180* out?  nuts are tight? adj. cam gears at 0?
that's all I got for now.

Yes Jason, i think it's timing too, leading me to the CAS.

Cams are at 0 yes, nuts are tight.

As for the CAS being 180degrees out, I honestly didn't know that was possible. It only bolts in one way, with the sensor plug up, unless your talking about the actual dowel that goes into the slot at the end of the camshaft being 180 degrees out. Is that possible? If so i must have gotten lucky every other time i've rebuilt my motor.

[Marke Bailey]

I may be wrong on that one, I thought it was just a slot fit for the end of the cam. forgot about the dowel.

[Lowell Foo]

The CAS can certainly be installed 180 out of phase, although a stock car will still run somewhat ok like this.

[Matt Mann]

I had my CAS 180 degrees out it ran ok, then I tried to adjust the timing and the CAS could be adjusted anymore so i flipped it and she was good to go. Do you need a 90 or 91-94 CAS?

[John Hartman]

you can borrow mine too Ryan, you know where I live.

I would suggest it might be something else however.  If you are getting periodic spark out of the plugs(like it supposed to, not intermittant), and turning the CAS thru its full range of timing won't make it start, I would say its not the CAS.  If it was the cas, not only would you not get regular spark, but you won't get fuel.

The above diagnosis relies on you using the stock spark and fuel feeds for your standalone however.  If you have another crank position trigger(crank sensor etc etc) for your ECU, then all bets are off because that will be supplying fuel trigger.

Now as for the slow cranking, I would triple check all your connections on that rear mounted battery.  Or temporarily wire up a battery in the stock position.  You could leave the other ones in place, just disconnect the rear battery.  If that doesn't change it, your engine or your starter itself is the drag.

Even my wee little Oddessy battery will crank like mad for a few min before it starts to slow down.  Then again, it had 2 nearly dead holes so thats less drag 

[Ryan Coft]

confirmed the spark and fuel tonight with Jason. Wasn't the CAS but it is timing related somehow, crank it over for a few and nothing, pull the plugs and they're soaked as is the compression chamber. Timing and/or too much fuel from the AEM is my guess.

Have to get an AEM guru to take a look shortly.

[daniel Dee]

You can try my .cal if you like I have 5 bar map and AIT sensor...and my setup starts almost like stock.
Use at your own risk though......

[John Hartman]

pull the injector connectors off and crank it.

If it fires and dies, fires and dies, plug in 1 and 3 or 2 and 4 and try it again.  I bet it will sorta half assed run if my gut is correct.

I have seen this on a couple of cars, both way overfuelling, one because of an overactive coolant temp sensor and one was just frigged.

[Kristopher]

My thought is to recheck the wiring on the injectors and the COP setup. Sounds to me like the plugs/injectors aren't firing when they're supposed to, i.e. on the wrong plugs.

[Brett Haviland]

yeah i have had a problem like this before too because of bad wiring to the ecu's coolent temp sensor.  But as your running standalone im not sure if that applies.

[Mark Guthrie]

my ecu coolant temp sensor is toast right now and i have troubles in the morning starting my car, have to pump the gas alittle to get it to start

[Mike Schmid]

Little late but as for the CAS there should be a little dot or arrow on the housing itself near the drive pin, then the one side of the drive pin should have a dot on it, they should be close to each other at #1 TDC when all the T-belt stuff is lined up on the timing marks. 

But a bad CAS will manifest as no spark and no fuel will it not?  Because the ECU doesn't know it's cranking.  Oops, nevermind, John already said that. 

I'd go back and check the AEM. 

Or have you verified spark?  If you're using the stock power transistor they're known to go bad too.