Honda Argument with Friend

[Amir Ali]

The fact that mitsu added there own vvt MIVEC or whatever has nothing to do with power and everything to do with fuel economy, weird how 20 years later all the hoda crowd had yet to see that vtec was made to do just that and was never about making power it was in fact about restricting it.

True That, tell that to your friend.

[GlenMartin]

The fact that mitsu added there own vvt MIVEC or whatever has nothing to do with power and everything to do with fuel economy, weird how 20 years later all the hoda crowd had yet to see that vtec was made to do just that and was never about making power it was in fact about restricting it.

True That, tell that to your friend.

totaly untrue statement.......well maybe not untrue. incomplete. honda's main goal was to provide fuel efficient vehicles, but fuel efficient vehicles with power. vtec is for power. power out of small displacement motors. vtec motors get worse gas mileage than the non-vtec ones. fun fact honda was the first car company to achieve the 100 hp per litre mark. (b16) take my engine for example d16z6. stock it has 125 hp. and 103 ft/lbs of torque. the d16a6 is virtually the same in every way. yet it came with 108 hp, and 100ft/lbs of torque. pretty much the only difference is one has vtec the other doesn't.

[Shane Sawatzki]

[Graeme H Burvill]

Why don't you guys settle this on the strip?

[GlenMartin]

Why don't you guys settle this on the strip?

sure fire way to shut anyone up is to beat them on the strip.

[Graeme H Burvill]

sure beats bench racing

[John Hartman]

stock for stock, same weight car, power for power, obviously the one with some torque wins.

Mod for mod, a DSM vs even the best 4 cylinder honda(the B18c or the K20), the DSM is gonna win.

Add an intake, exhaust and some other small mods to an Integra or RSX, you get what?  8-18 more hp and 3-10 more lbs/ft/  Do the same with a DSM/Evo/GVR4 or any other good factory turbo car for that matter and you get 35-80 more hp and 50-100 more lbs/ft

add a turbo to a stock K20 or B18c and you can run what safely? 6-10 psi if your tune is very good?  Keep the stock turbo on a good turbo car and you can simply up the boost and gain a ton.

Try to run 20-30 psi on a stock internals B18c or K20/24 or D16.  You may be able to for a wee bit if your tune is PERFECT and the planets all align.  You can do that on a 4g63, RB26dett or 2JZGT3.  Probably a few others too, but those ones are proven to be able to do it.

And once you start adding internal parts, its all about the engine builder at that point, not the base engine itself.  Tho some hold up better than others do.  The 4G, RB and 2J again come to mind.

but again, its not really all about the original at this point.  Like domestic guys that say thier 650hp small block "Chev" is a Chevrolet.  When in fact its a Keith Black block, Dart heads, Scat crank, Sealed power rings, Clevite bearings, Mahle pistons, Eagle rods, Milodon oil pump, Crower cam, Comp roller cam gears, lifters, pushrods and chain, Moroso oil pan, Edelbrock intake manifold, Lunati roller rockers, and a Dominator carb.  The only thing stock is the water pump. Maybe.

We all know you can take the 4g63, 1/2jzgte and Rb26dett and using stock everything but cams, make that same power on pump gas.  Or easily on race gas.  Hell, John Shepards engine made over 1200hp on the stock block, crank and head.  This is pretty much unheard of, up until that time.  Off the shelf, Mitsubishi castings/machinings.  Yes they were tweaked, but still they are the stock parts, not aftermarket parts.  Even now, the only thing that changed there is the Eagle crank I believe.

now, normally aspirated, yes, the BEST Honda stuff is very very good.  Up there(but not quite as good as) with BMW, Porsche and a few others such as some of the sport bike engines.  Thier basic VE is very good, thier pumping losses are low, they are light weight and rev very well and make good power. Thier manifolds are matched well, they are well tuned in the ECU etc.  The do not however, make any torque to speak of in normally aspirated form.

[Brett Haviland]

I still say a civic with a B18c and a 16g at 12psi with a good tune will beat a DSM with a 16G at 12psi and a good tune any day of the week.

And im a mitsu guy!  Workinging at evolution i witnessed what these honda motors are capible of.

Oh and also john shepard doesn't really run a stock block.  He had it solid filled and didn't run coolant anymore so it could only run at like a few minutes at a time before it overheated.


I would love to see this battle hit the track tho!!!

AWD 16G DSM at 12 psi and a tune,  and a B18c 16g civic at 12 psi with a tune.

The civic would just destroy the DSM... maybe not off the line.. but it would catch, and pass it in no time.


Also my buddy shawn ran his 100% STOCK B16 CRX at like 15 psi of boost for a few years...and drove it daily as well.  he ran low 12's and 11's on that engine if i rmemeber correctly up at ashcroft raceway and pretty much destoyed any DSM that came near him... (including my 4g63t colt)

[Ivan Skare]

I still say a civic with a B18c and a 16g at 12psi with a good tune will beat a DSM with a 16G at 12psi and a good tune any day of the week.

And im a mitsu guy!  Workinging at evolution i witnessed what these honda motors are capible of.

Oh and also john shepard doesn't really run a stock block.  He had it solid filled and didn't run coolant anymore so it could only run at like a few minutes at a time before it overheated.


I would love to see this battle hit the track tho!!!

AWD 16G DSM at 12 psi and a tune,  and a B18c 16g civic at 12 psi with a tune.

The civic would just destroy the DSM... maybe not off the line.. but it would catch, and pass it in no time.


Also my buddy shawn ran his 100% STOCK B16 CRX at like 15 psi of boost for a few years...and drove it daily as well.  he ran low 12's and 11's on that engine if i rmemeber correctly up at ashcroft raceway and pretty much destoyed any DSM that came near him... (including my 4g63t colt)

Yeah but don't forget a dsm is over 3000 lbs!

[Brett Haviland]

exactly!! thats why the honda would kick the shit out of the dsm.


and also i bet it would out dyno it too.. not for torque but i bet it would put more HP down at the same boost levels with the same turbo bolted to each engine.

[GlenMartin]

I still say a civic with a B18c and a 16g at 12psi with a good tune will beat a DSM with a 16G at 12psi and a good tune any day of the week.

And im a mitsu guy!  Workinging at evolution i witnessed what these honda motors are capible of.

Oh and also john shepard doesn't really run a stock block.  He had it solid filled and didn't run coolant anymore so it could only run at like a few minutes at a time before it overheated.


I would love to see this battle hit the track tho!!!

AWD 16G DSM at 12 psi and a tune,  and a B18c 16g civic at 12 psi with a tune.

The civic would just destroy the DSM... maybe not off the line.. but it would catch, and pass it in no time.


Also my buddy shawn ran his 100% STOCK B16 CRX at like 15 psi of boost for a few years...and drove it daily as well.  he ran low 12's and 11's on that engine if i rmemeber correctly up at ashcroft raceway and pretty much destoyed any DSM that came near him... (including my 4g63t colt)

shawn endel from 100 mile? perfect example of those honda motors. the motors aren't designed for boost but they are built so well that you can run them like they were.

[Jason Harwood]

In regard to jon's post about large boost on a 4g over a honda.
Stock turbo'd motors are equipped to handle boost appropriatly, which is why you can run more boost on them than a non stock turbo'd motor.

So really, should we be comparing a 420a turbo'd vs a b18c turbo'd? Clearly, you can all pick the winner in this race.

Putting the BEST 4 cylinder honda vs a DSM means your throwing a 240hp 2.0L engine against a 210HP stock turbo'd engine.

Turbo'd are there to add "displacement" to car's to give them more power.
When you're comparing a car thats non turbo'd which has an aggresive cam profile to make up for it.

When you can extract 200hp from a 1.8L and 210 HP from a 2.0L turbo.
From a stock comparison youre going to tell yourself which one is faster.

Well, which one has a shell that weigh's 2400lbs and which one weigh's 3200lbs.
When you put weight into it, you've got your winner, even 60ftlbs more torque isnt going to save the 3200lb car.

This flame war will probably rage on for ever and ever just like it has on every other forum and probably this forum at one point before.
I just wanted to add some "fresh" information.

[Joliesa Lepp]

In regard to jon's post about large boost on a 4g over a honda.
Stock turbo'd motors are equipped to handle boost appropriatly, which is why you can run more boost on them than a non stock turbo'd motor.

So really, should we be comparing a 420a turbo'd vs a b18c turbo'd? Clearly, you can all pick the winner in this race.

Putting the BEST 4 cylinder honda vs a DSM means your throwing a 240hp 2.0L engine against a 210HP stock turbo'd engine.

Turbo'd are there to add "displacement" to car's to give them more power.
When you're comparing a car thats non turbo'd which has an aggresive cam profile to make up for it.

When you can extract 200hp from a 1.8L and 210 HP from a 2.0L turbo.
From a stock comparison youre going to tell yourself which one is faster.

Well, which one has a shell that weigh's 2400lbs and which one weigh's 3200lbs.
When you put weight into it, you've got your winner, even 60ftlbs more torque isnt going to save the 3200lb car.

This flame war will probably rage on for ever and ever just like it has on every other forum and probably this forum at one point before.
I just wanted to add some "fresh" information.

Except that his friend was not comparing it to a stock 420a, he was comparing to a 4g63.
No argument in my mind, if my car can't rape a honda, theres no point in driving.

[GlenMartin]

No argument in my mind, if my car can't rape a honda, theres no point in driving.

hahahhaha

[Jason Harwood]

There are some fast hondas out there too!

In regard to jon's post about large boost on a 4g over a honda.
Stock turbo'd motors are equipped to handle boost appropriatly, which is why you can run more boost on them than a non stock turbo'd motor.

So really, should we be comparing a 420a turbo'd vs a b18c turbo'd? Clearly, you can all pick the winner in this race.

Putting the BEST 4 cylinder honda vs a DSM means your throwing a 240hp 2.0L engine against a 210HP stock turbo'd engine.

Turbo'd are there to add "displacement" to car's to give them more power.
When you're comparing a car thats non turbo'd which has an aggresive cam profile to make up for it.

When you can extract 200hp from a 1.8L and 210 HP from a 2.0L turbo.
From a stock comparison youre going to tell yourself which one is faster.

Well, which one has a shell that weigh's 2400lbs and which one weigh's 3200lbs.
When you put weight into it, you've got your winner, even 60ftlbs more torque isnt going to save the 3200lb car.

This flame war will probably rage on for ever and ever just like it has on every other forum and probably this forum at one point before.
I just wanted to add some "fresh" information.

Except that his friend was not comparing it to a stock 420a, he was comparing to a 4g63.
No argument in my mind, if my car can't rape a honda, theres no point in driving.