British Columbia DSM

GVRD - BC DSM Club => Garage => Topic started by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 12, 2011, 11:55:15 am

Title: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 12, 2011, 11:55:15 am
All the electronics in the car work fine, and I can hear the starter turning the engine over and over but it won't start up..




I was doing a boost leak test yesterday and found that my TPS wasn't tight enough and was leaking pretty bad (my BISS was really really bad) So I tightened it up.

I had a really hard time for some reason trying to get to that bottom 8mm bolt on the TPS, so I had my girlfriend help me with it


We were doing good, I ran to the garage to grab something and while I was gone she released the wrench against the battery terminal (the one on the side) and some shit started to smoke....

By the time I got out she was *blowing the smoke away...I mean shit happens so, time to just deal with the issue at hand

Shes unable to tell me exactly where the smoke came from, but she believes it was on the spring side of the throttle body (I dont even see any electronics there)


Im doing testing today and Ill post up my results, Ill start at the TPS and then I donno, the car will not start up, but it will turn over and over and over


-None of the fuses are blown
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Remi Raymond on March 12, 2011, 01:20:57 pm
That just plain sucks.

First thing you need to do is check your ECU for damage

Bad TPS's (and ISC's) have been known to burn out ECU's just by sending 5 volts to them. Running voltage through the TB most likely did the same thing...

Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 12, 2011, 01:23:31 pm
check for spark, check for fuel.

if you can isolate which it is, then you don't have to test EVERYTHING.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 12, 2011, 01:32:58 pm
I've just tested the power to fuel, everything looks ok there.

I've just checked the ISC with an ohmmeter, im not getting the usual reading but its also really hard to get in there.
I think Im going to have to go down to the junkyard and try to find another one I guess. Ill test it again after I get it out of there just to make sure


Anyone have a quick idea what kind of 4g63 i can pull it out of?
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 12, 2011, 01:43:40 pm
the isc will not cause your car to not start.  It maybe won't rev up on start up or idle well or at all.

You can find one from anything that looks the same.  its in tons of cars, even single cam cars.

And how did you "tested the power to fuel"?  I am not following.

I mean for you to see if you are actually getting any fuel.  Like pull the return line off at the regulator and have someone crank the engine(yes crank it, not key on, our system doesn't work the same as a Chev truck) and watch for copious amounts of fuel.

Check for spark tho, its easier.  Pull a wire, put a spare plug in it(any kind is fine) and touch the threads of the plug to some clean metal on the engine and crank it.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Remi Raymond on March 12, 2011, 01:44:04 pm
Check your ECU for damage...
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 12, 2011, 02:05:58 pm
How do you check an ecu for damages?

With the fuel system, when I rewired it I added some test lamps to tell me if Im getting power to the pump, which I am.



So really any of the throttle body stuff cant be stopping my car from starting...

dammit, that means its a bigger problem...
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 12, 2011, 02:30:36 pm
So I just checked the plugs as you said john.

I took the wire out from the plug, plugged another plug into that wire, and held the threads of the plug against a grounded bolt.

I didn't see anything sparking or hear anything...

I have a pretty good feeling im not getting any spark at all

Did I do it right? what does that mean?


Could it possibly just be my power transistor for the wires?
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Remi Raymond on March 12, 2011, 03:40:08 pm
Take it out and look at it physically, there will probably be something melted or exploded.
Search for "DSM TPS ECU failure" and start reading.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Jordan Kruger on March 12, 2011, 03:55:41 pm
just a quick glance at any circuit board will reveal a short.   take the cover off the ecu and look at the green board and pay close attention to anywhere a pin goes thru and is soldered   a short will often leave a white or black burn mark.  check that your capacitors are good while your in there too.  they tend to melt due to heat alone..
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: kevin derhouson on March 12, 2011, 04:13:23 pm
just a quick glance at any circuit board will reveal a short.   take the cover off the ecu and look at the green board and pay close attention to anywhere a pin goes thru and is soldered   a short will often leave a white or black burn mark.  check that your capacitors are good while your in there too.  they tend to melt due to heat alone..

it would likely smell a bit in your car as well, have had circuit boards from computers fry in my lap before and its always a peculiar odour.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 12, 2011, 04:22:40 pm
So even if the steppor motor is completely fried the car will still start and turn on? I'd really like to avoid doing the 2 hour job of testing the ecu if that's not what it is.

Like all the smoke came from under the hood, from under the throttle body
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 12, 2011, 04:39:15 pm
I'm going to the store to buy an odb 2 reader. Ill post the errors
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Jordan Kruger on March 12, 2011, 04:44:52 pm
have you even pulled the spark plugs with them still connected and check for spark?    do you hear the fuel pump?
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Remi Raymond on March 12, 2011, 06:39:51 pm
So even if the steppor motor is completely fried the car will still start and turn on? I'd really like to avoid doing the 2 hour job of testing the ecu if that's not what it is.

Like all the smoke came from under the hood, from under the throttle body

I think you might be confused about this
It takes 5 minutes to pull the eco and 30 seconds to open the cover.
A code reader won't help you if the circuit board is damaged.
You just need to use your eyes to rule that out first because what was done has most likely caused damage to it.

Does your CEL come on when you turn the key to "ON" (don't start it)
Does it go out after 5 seconds?
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 12, 2011, 07:42:47 pm
"I think you might be confused about this"

I guess I was, Ill pull it out tommorow morning, when I had to do my 1g I had to pull the entire center consol out and really pry at it to get to it and it took a long time.


My CEL does come on, but from a previous issue with the p/s pump.


"have you even pulled the spark plugs with them still connected and check for spark?    do you hear the fuel pump?"
-Havnt listened for the fuel pump but it is getting power
-Yes I have pulled the wire, attached another plug to it and looked and listened for spark, put it against a ground as well and nothing at all happened




So I'll pull it apart tommorow morning and open up the ecu. I guess it should be pretty easy to spot. Is there any other bench testing I can do before I put it back in?

If it is ok then what do I do?
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Remi Raymond on March 12, 2011, 09:59:06 pm
No what I mean is key to On watch the CEL. The normal behaviour if the key is on and the car is not started is it comes on and stays on for 5 seconds, then goes off. If it doesn't come on it means something is wrong with the ECU, it's kindof like an ECU test, thats why I asked.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 13, 2011, 12:33:35 pm
OK Pics of the ECU:
http://img59.imageshack.us/i/p1010912i.jpg/
(http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1105/p1010912i.th.jpg) (http://img59.imageshack.us/i/p1010912i.jpg/)

None of the caps are blown,but there is some really weird resin stuff on the bottom, and some of the connections look like there burnt to an extent, but nothing is touching that I can see
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Remi Raymond on March 13, 2011, 05:38:22 pm
Nothing to my eyes either, although I'm not an expert.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 13, 2011, 06:05:30 pm
take one of the other side of the board too.

As well, if you can find someone close to you with a 2g turbo car you can try your ECU in thier car and theirs in yours.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 13, 2011, 06:22:02 pm
Will do, I took another picture but was unable to upload it. Ill try again soon.

Ill also take a picture of my ISC, I took it out to clean the throttle body and inspect everything, since I wanted to change my seals anyways, the ISC is very very brown and burned looking on the inside. I tested the motor with the ohmmeter, and it worked. But then I applied 6volts to it and the motor barely moved at all, it was more of a twitch
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Remi Raymond on March 13, 2011, 06:27:34 pm
FYI on a 1g it would be these drivers in red
(http://www.dsmisc.com/dsmweb-dw/_images/ecudrivers.jpg)
I assume 2g is similar. They look ok to me, but lik John says se eif you can beg borrow or steal a spare 2g ecu and see if your car fires up.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Jordan Kruger on March 13, 2011, 06:52:04 pm
check the back of the board like john suggested.  in some cases the charge will unsolder a connection.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 13, 2011, 07:56:41 pm
Heres the back of the board

I dont see any connections that look like they're bad

(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6305/p1010914u.th.jpg) (http://img46.imageshack.us/i/p1010914u.jpg/)

Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 13, 2011, 07:57:58 pm
And the ICS it looks pretty bad

(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/8906/p1010918c.th.jpg) (http://img8.imageshack.us/i/p1010918c.jpg/)
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Remi Raymond on March 13, 2011, 09:20:20 pm
That is cooked for sure. Bad ISC's can burn out ECUs so do not do anything until you have it disconnected or replaced. You could damage another ECU.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 13, 2011, 09:48:54 pm
Nice, thats a good thing. Means I'm on the right track...

Anyone got an ISC for sale?



Oh and when I do the 6v test nothing happens at all anymore, so its gotta be right shot.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 13, 2011, 09:57:53 pm
yep, that ISC looks like it got damn hot.  Don't run a known good ECU with that one.

However, looking at the ECU rear picture, I don't like that smoky looking residue top left corner.  I don't like some of the other parts near the bottom center either, but it could just be shadows from the camera.  That top left corner with the smoky stuff I don't like.

oh yea, again, the ISC is not going to stop the car from starting, either spark, fuel or timing.  It will allow/help it to idle on its own.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 13, 2011, 10:21:51 pm
Ok, well ill source out another one, see what happens, and then is a replacement ecu just the next step? Is there any other troubleshooting I can do before I dive into an expensive part. And if I do have to get a new ecu I guess only the 95's can be modded from what I hear, so ill need one of those. I'm thinking if that's the route I may have to talk to andrew and see if I can get one chipped, I don't think I'm going to be in the position to pickup dsmlink after all this
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Chad Giffen on March 14, 2011, 08:27:36 am
ISC's are known to fail in the open position as a fail safe. Thus, the car should still start in theory, but just give you idle surge because the stepper motor twitches back and forth.

Hopefully I'm wrong.

And John's right...    That smokey residue in the top left of the rear side of the ECU looks like a short. Get some vinegar and a tooth brush and wipe that away. Don't use acetone, or it will dissolve the protective layer on the ECU board.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Remi Raymond on March 14, 2011, 03:21:17 pm
Good catch guys I thought it was just dirt, but that does look like a short for sure.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 14, 2011, 05:51:47 pm
So lordco wants $384 for a new isc... Ebay its only $60 so I guess that's what it will be... Damn... 2 week wait...
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 14, 2011, 05:58:24 pm
www.dsmisc.com

good service, brand new, the new updated ones too.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Chad Giffen on March 14, 2011, 08:18:49 pm
Mikael did you read my post?

You should still get a start even with a bad ISC. I would be more worried about that first. Leave it out and try and start your car. It will run like shit, but it should still start. Hell, even restrict the hole a bit.

Fix that ECU short!

I have one for a 1G ::)
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 14, 2011, 08:27:33 pm
Yeah I did read your post, I've been following this really closely.

I have the ECU out of the car, I was planning on getting a new ISC, as I needed one anyways, and trying to start it. Due to the odd nature of the break Im just hoping that it bunt out in the closed position preventing me from starting.

I dont hold any belief that its going to work though...

After I get the ICS and throttle body all back together, I'll open up the ECU again and clean off the contacts and see if that helps.

I dont even really want to try to start it again tho until I have a new ISC and that ECU cleaned all in there hooked up properly.


Is there any chance that if the cleaning of the ECU doesnt work that it can blow my brand new ISC?

Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Remi Raymond on March 14, 2011, 10:28:52 pm
Mikael did you read my post?

You should still get a start even with a bad ISC. I would be more worried about that first. Leave it out and try and start your car. It will run like shit, but it should still start. Hell, even restrict the hole a bit.

Fix that ECU short!

I have one for a 1G ::)

It was pointed out the isc wouldn't prevent starting, but a bad one will damage any ecu put into the car until it's replaced so he can't attempt starting until then.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Jordan Kruger on March 14, 2011, 10:40:41 pm
Are u able to post a better pic of the problem area on the back of your ECU?   That definitely looks like a short.    and dont stress about the ISC too much....  your car will run without it. like chad said. definitely get a new one tho.   The ISC just bypasses air past your throttle body allowing your car to settle at idle.  So you may have to peddle it a bit to keep it alive.  My car has no ISC. Not a great mod... lol  but I didnt do it.  The car runs fine because of its tune tho. occasionally it will stumble but it aint no thang.   Make sure your ECU is fine for sure before you put it back in and try to start the car.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 14, 2011, 11:25:47 pm
as I have been trying to say as well...

If you are so set on it being the ISC, put the ECU back in, and open the throttle a wee bit, and try to fire it.  If its just the ISC, you will get it to fire, it just may not idle well or at all.  But it will fire up with a little bit of throttle pedal.

If you have no spark, its not your ISC causing the no start.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 15, 2011, 12:29:16 am
Yep, Im working on getting a new ECU all together, I just figured I wanted to try it with the new ISC, but obviously thats not the problem and theres a bigger underlying issue.

Now I just really really hope that it IS the ECU and not like, the spark plug power transistor or something. But I guess I could test parts and pieces all day long
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 15, 2011, 08:46:30 am
no thats what we are trying to get you not to do.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Jason Harwood on March 15, 2011, 11:40:04 am
I've mostly skipped everything said in here to ask - do the 1G's not have a ECU Fuse / Relay that could have blown.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Constantin Morosan on March 15, 2011, 06:01:21 pm
don't mean to jake  this thread but  what are the  symptoms  of  a faulty ISC ?

I mean i have been having issue with my car dying  when i step on it hard in a turn .. like DEAD no throtle reaction .. but all electronics are ok.

that little issue almost cause  a crash at the  Fraser valley tour .. so  just wondering  if this ICS could cause such a problem . car starts fine drives fine !

i took mine out and its pretty black and dirty :S

sorry if im jaking this thread thought it may be related

thanks
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Graeme H Burvill on March 15, 2011, 06:59:43 pm
Is the coil pack not located near the throttle body, if i recall its kinda tucked in to the intake manifold. You said you had no spark, and smoke from that area. All you need is a multimeter to test the coil pack i believe. Though i would test your ecu pronto to verify if it is good or not.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: KevinBuckham on March 15, 2011, 07:21:47 pm
I mean i have been having issue with my car dying  when i step on it hard in a turn .. like DEAD no throtle reaction .. but all electronics are ok.

Unrelated.  (IMO)  I would think critical sensor or wiring : cam sensor, crank sensor, MAF.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 15, 2011, 07:38:48 pm
Ok I got another picture of the back of the ECU, I had to borrow a camera to get a good enough shot.

I really don't understand what I should be doing then. I thought everyone was telling me to get a new ECU and that was what the problem was, but now I get setup to buy one and thats not what I should be doing? please help!

(http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/3120/ecuback.th.jpg) (http://img691.imageshack.us/i/ecuback.jpg/)

Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Remi Raymond on March 15, 2011, 08:23:29 pm
You said " i guess i could just test parts and pieces all day long "
John probably thought that meant you were going to throw parts at it.

Yes, try another ECU first.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 15, 2011, 09:08:27 pm
do it systematically.

Have you tested for spark and/or fuel pressure?

those are things you HAVE to do when properly diagnosing a no-start.

Yes you can guess and yes you can get lucky, but its not the correct way to diagnose an issue.

I know for a fact that the ISC itself, the ISC wiring and/or the ISC circuits BY THEMSELVES won't be the cause of a no-start.  If it was just the ISC or part of its full circuit, you could get it started by using your gas pedal foot to start it and keep it running.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 15, 2011, 09:39:00 pm
Yes I have tested for spark. There is no spark whatsoever.

Pulled plug, attached a spare plug, got someone to start the car while i tried to get it to spark, no matter how close or where i touched it to ground nothing happened at all, no spark.

I don't know how to check for fuel other then unscrewing the fuel line and seeing if it pisses fuel out... I cant see this being correct but maybe Im wrong...

I really do NOT want to throw parts at it, and cannot afford to do so.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 15, 2011, 09:51:41 pm
pull the return line off the fuel pressure regulator. Stuff a line on it. Stuff the line in a clear bottle, say an empty Dasani water bottle etc.  Have someone crank the car for a little while, maybe 5-6 crank rotations.  You should get significant fuel out of there.  Like as much as that rubber line can handle really.  Not high pressure, but lots of flow.

Also at the other end, you can crank the car to build pressure, then you can go to the fitting on top of the fuel filter and crack it loose.  It should spray fairly impressively out.

Yes, the flying fuel is not the absolute best or safest way, but if you are intelligent about it, (no smoking, sparking anything etc, and the engine is cold) you will be fine, and seeing as that you do not have a fuel pressure guage, its what you have to do.

now, that said, go buy a cheap fuel pressure guage.  I know they carry them at Lordco.  Probably about $35 for a simple screw in gauge.  It will come with a banjo fitting that replaces that 17mm bolt on top of the fuel filter.  Then the gauge screws into that.  This is something you should have anyways.

Now once you find out if you have no fuel pressure to go along with the no spark, you can start narrowing it down.  For example, no spark but fuel pressure, you will look to the coil pack/transistor/wiring. If you have neither its something ECU/CAS/crank sensor related most likely.  If its just no fuel pressure, (not your case, but I am trying to help you understand the process) you would look at the fuel pump fuse, relay and pump/wiring.

now of course you CAN have multilple failures at one time, and that gets really confusing, but lets treat this like its one failure.

now, once you determine weather you have fuel pressure(I am guessing you won't), do like others have said earlier.  Turn the key to run, but do not crank the engine over.  Your Check Engine light should come on for a few seconds and go out.  If it does not, I, like others, strongly suggest your ECU is pooched.

now, go borrow someone elses 2g turbo ECU.  Plug it in, turn the key to run, but again, do not crank it.  See if that CEL comes on for a few seconds and goes out.  If its ok with the ECU's owner, crank and try to fire the car.  If it runs, you know your ECU is pooched.

I would get a new ISC to go with that ECU as I suspect that ISC will take out the new ECU eventually.

Now, all that said, we are just doing this over an internet forum, with some basic pictures, simptoms and diagnostic procedures, so it could be a melted wire or something else that is hidden from you.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 15, 2011, 10:49:14 pm
I am going to do all of that within the next 18 hours. Thank you! I have a much clearer understanding now of the symptoms and direction that I need to go in to fix this, I may even get my first night of real sleep in days now
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Carl Gould on March 16, 2011, 01:33:49 am
For what it's worth, I live an hour away from you, and have 3 different 2g turbo ecu's. If you want, I'll do what I can to find some time over the next couple days to bring them out to you.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 16, 2011, 01:03:43 pm
Man, that would be awesome  ;D

Then i would know 100% before buying another ecu. Man I would really really appreciate it if you could do something like that.

Just let me know when you can swing by and Ill make sure to have the car all ready and the wires out.


I picked up a B&M fuel pressure gauge this morning, also ready installed in the car. I believe it was the same one that you suggest John.

Also went to pick and pull, but was unable to find a good ISC.

I turned the key on with everything plugged in, just like everyone said, the check engine light comes on. But then it goes off again after about 5 seconds
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 16, 2011, 01:41:02 pm
thats normal, a good sign.

you can crank the car now, plug the ECU in and see if you have fuel pressure.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 16, 2011, 02:17:30 pm
Ok, I tried cranking the car, I am getting fuel pressure, its reading as 40 lbs, still not starting but it is cranking
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 16, 2011, 05:08:14 pm
ok, so that should rule out the CAS/Crank sensor, fuel pump, fuel pump relay, fuel pump relay trigger(in the ECU).

You need to find out why you have no spark now.

You still may not be actually getting any injector pulse from the ECU tho, so you can do a couple of things.  If you have access to a set of 'noid lights(specific LEDS that plug into your injector harness) you just pull one injector plug, stick the 'noid light in and crank the engine.  If the noid light flashes rythmically that should be good.


If you don't have that, you will have to pull your CAS(mark it so you don't have to retime it),  and spin it by hand.  You will hear the injectors fire if the CAS is turning but the engine is off.

Of course it could still be melted wires, the ECU, (tho its looking less and less like an ECU), a coil pack or power transistor.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 16, 2011, 09:56:26 pm
Ok, I've started testing the the ignition coil, unplugged the 3 wire plug and checked resistance, it says from 0.77-0.95 ohms, I'm seeing 0.9 and 1.0, so I'm sure there's no problem there... Ill check the transistor as soon as I figure out how to
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 16, 2011, 11:15:13 pm
those sort of items are hard to test using the ohm tests.  Most of the time, you just have to narrow it down to one or two items, then just swap with known good parts.

maybe Carl can help you out when he comes down?  his car will have a coil pack, transistor pack, ecu etc to test.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 19, 2011, 10:47:12 pm
So I bought an ECU and It wasn't the ECU....
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 19, 2011, 10:58:38 pm
do you still have no spark but good fuel pressure?

the second ECU can be bad too  :)  Unless you can see it make a car run, and your ECU will not make the same car run, then you don't know absolutely for sure.

Plus, we have sort of narrowed it down that its less and less likely to be the ECU.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 19, 2011, 11:09:54 pm
Yeah I thought the same thing, thats why I bought 2  ECU's just in case.

I am still getting fuel pressure and no spark. And I bought an ammeter (for $2) just to make sure my pump was getting adequate power (overkill, but for $2), Its rewired with 4 ga as well(from before). Fed into a watertight compartment running a heavy duty relay.

Ill double check everything tomorrow again...

I bought a 97 ecu which Im positive works and a 99 ecu (but its in a normal metal housing, not the black plastic casing, which I found odd) which I have a very good feeling works, neither units are from junkyards
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Brett Haviland on March 20, 2011, 11:57:45 am
7 bolt?

maybe your crank walked out of the block and punched the crank sensor in the face.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 20, 2011, 11:58:20 am
Hardy har har..... That would have had to be a hell of an arc to move the crank that far. Like Jesus' Vengance Lightning kinda arc



Is it possible that its my MPI relay?

I tried testing it, but the directions are a little skewered, i got caught up on this:

"If MPI relay test okay in following steps, substitute PCM with known good unit and retest. Measure resistance between relay terminals #5 and #7. Resistance should be approximately 90 ohms. Check continuity between terminals #6 and #8. Continuity should exist in only one direction. Replace MPI relay if continuity is not as specified."

So I tested it with everything still plugged in.  Continuity exists in only one direction, which is good. But I have to put it on 2k Ohms to get a reading of 1.44.

I dont even know if I tested right, but with the relay in there or removed I get the same reading, so I assume its not the relay itself....
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Chad Giffen on March 20, 2011, 01:21:55 pm
Holy crap all this is taking way too long.

lol.

Ok. How about we all only focus n spark issue, since that is the main problem:

Lets start from the parts furthest away from the spark and work inwards......     lets also remember this was caused by shorting the battery, so compression and fuel should be fine.

1) ECU is ruled out. We know that's not it.
2) MPI Relay (Listen for the click when the ignition is turned off/on)
3) CAM sensor (this sends signal to the power transistor)

       lets do a bit more of a diagnosis on this. Let's try this......

       - Remove the CAM sensor, but leave it plugged in.
       - Remove the spark plugs and wires, but leave the assembled and have them all resting on he exhaust manifold so they are grounded and will visually spark if possible.
       - turn the ignition on, but don't crank the car
       - now go turn the crank angle sensor by hand. If the coil pack and power transistor are working, you will hear them discharge loudly as you turn the CAM sensor. Look for spark.

     If you don't hear the discharge noise, replace the coil pack and power transistor. If you do hear them and there is no spark, replace the CAS

Do this and get back to us.


Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 20, 2011, 01:58:57 pm
The MPI relay isn't making any sounds at all, I cant hear it do anything.
But I then pulled them off and tested them on the bench and they are clicking just fine. So its not getting something from the wires leading to the MPI relays I guess...???

Ive pulled the CAS off, including the 14mm bolt. Pulled off the spark plugs / wires and did as said.

Turned the ignition on

Getting no responce from anything at all. No clicking from anything, no sparks, nothing

The only relay the clicks when the car is turned on is the one right under the drivers side on the left bottom

Does that mean that I have to replace completely everything?

d
I just don't see how the MPI relay can be at fault when Im getting the same readings wether its plugged in or not...
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Chad Giffen on March 20, 2011, 02:43:03 pm
Well did you swap the CAS yet? Orborrow a kn good oe?
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 20, 2011, 04:16:41 pm
I live in Kelowna so its not exactly easy to just grab parts, almost everything has to be shipped.

I ripped out the power transistor and it def looks bad, it has a bunch of oxidization on some of the prongs. Would that stop the car from running if it was toast?

Im on the prowl now for some parts
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Chad Giffen on March 20, 2011, 04:21:35 pm
If its toast, your car would not get spark.

Its pretty hard to stop all that current with oxidation unless the oxidation is really bad. Like coating the whole prong basically. I doubt thats it as you would have had intermittent problems before this occurance.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Jordan Kruger on March 20, 2011, 04:31:28 pm
if you have a voltmeter, Im sure you can find out if the transistor or any sensor is good. Ive tested almost every sensor ive ever thrown away. confirming they were bad.    Search the net to find different methods of testing. I havent looked into testing the transistor, just applying low voltage will tell you if its making a connection or not.   But make sure you know how to test it, then try it.  ssssalll  ide do. lol 8)
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 20, 2011, 05:05:04 pm
I'll post a picture in a second. I opened up the transistor as it had corrosion, it killed the transistor but I was going to get a new one anyways.

There is a short in between #5+#6 on the inside, not noticeable at all.


With all of the transistor Ohm tests Ive done, they have all come out just fine. But this unit is for sure messed up. And im willing to bet that this is why my car is not working.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 20, 2011, 05:13:45 pm
corrosion on the connectors can and will cause issues.  And thats what I was saying about the ohm meter testing its not always a good indicator.  I have working know good parts that failed those tests, and have also returned known not working brand new parts that pass the test.  Used ones that pass the test have failed to actually run the car too.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 20, 2011, 06:02:22 pm
(http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/7822/powertransblown.th.jpg) (http://img814.imageshack.us/i/powertransblown.jpg/)

John and everyone else. THANK YOU! I really hope this is it, and Im sure it is. I owe all u guys a beer!
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Jordan Kruger on March 20, 2011, 06:24:47 pm
lol   tada!
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Constantin Morosan on March 20, 2011, 06:51:19 pm
holy shit son ....  how long did u shorted it out for ? LOL that thing EXPLODED !!  :D
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Brett Haviland on March 20, 2011, 08:05:41 pm
it looks like you ripped the transitors off the connections.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 20, 2011, 08:35:39 pm
yeah I did to look inside, figured I was replacing it anyways and wanted to know for sure if there was internal damage. The outside had a bunch of oxidation so I wasnt putting htat back on the car anyways.

When I pulled it apart you can see the green crap which was the short
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 20, 2011, 08:38:40 pm
ahh, yea.

Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Chad Giffen on March 20, 2011, 10:12:28 pm
Ya that's not oxidation....    that thing melted!
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 23, 2011, 05:06:45 pm
And that thing was also a major part of the problem  ;D

I have it running now, idling at 2000 though, Ill look closer tonither..
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 23, 2011, 05:53:38 pm
probably something adjsted wrong when you were trying to get it to run.  That or a big vacuum leak.  Did you have the throttle body off?
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 23, 2011, 05:56:15 pm
Yep I did, cleaned it really good and put all new seals on there, the old ones were leaking very badly, one had a chunk missing out of it.

I took my CAS off, but put it back on exactly the way I took it off, except I lost track of which way the little spinning thing inside was, would that make a difference? it can only go 1 of 2 ways
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 23, 2011, 06:05:09 pm
well, if its 180 out it can cause some issues, but not normally a high idle.

The reason I asked about the throttle body is that one of the gaskets HAS to go one way not the other and it fits both ways.  If its wrong, it doens't block off a large air hole and it idles really fast.  I did this embarrasingly enough a number of years ago...
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 23, 2011, 06:17:38 pm
Yep that would be the problem, I put the orange gasket maker shit on there, which wouldn't have blocked off anything... Too bad to becuase I had an excellent seal on there

Do you think I could find a way to get it sealed without a gasket? Everythings closed and I'd love to take it to work tommorow... No more ford forus wagon...
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 23, 2011, 07:28:33 pm
no, the gasket plays a role in blocking off part of the air passage. Dumb design.

Take it to work, get the gasket on your morning break, put it in on your lunch and be happy  :)
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Brett Haviland on March 23, 2011, 07:52:30 pm
A major part of the problem?  what were the other parts of the problem lol??
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 23, 2011, 08:25:46 pm
The ISC was toast, the ecu looked kinda sketchy, but then I tried it again today and it booted up just fine. I guess now my stock ecu is just super super clean. Im going to be using the 99 GSX ecu anywyas, since i have it I may as well use it, came off a newer car with less km.

I had a bunch of boost leaks too, many more then I thought
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 25, 2011, 08:37:52 am
So in Kelowna gaskets don't exist. I can't wait to move... None at the dealership or any parts stores, I made my own. Looks good and installed tightly, I've done a boost leak test but I'm still idling at around 1500... Even with the biss set all the way in, my tps
 and ISC are both properly adjusted too..
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Brett Haviland on March 25, 2011, 01:15:22 pm
do u have the throttle stop adjusted properly?
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 25, 2011, 01:27:20 pm
i didnt change it so Im not sure if theres anything different there.

Does anyone know if I can put an aftermarket throttle body on?

Something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/UNIVERSAL-70MM-THROTTLE-BODY-HONDA-TOYOTA-NISSAN-CIVIC-/270724083466?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AMitsubishi&hash=item3f0869af0a
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Remi Raymond on March 25, 2011, 01:33:20 pm
The stock throttlebody is excellent and doesn't become a bottleneck until you're making a lot more power than you're making now.

Also with an aftermarket TB you usually lose some of the things that make the car more livable (Like not stalling for the first 5 blocks when its cold, things like that)

Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 25, 2011, 01:35:24 pm
oh ok, I just dont want to take it off again, I guess ill have to do ANOTHER boost leak test, Im getting really tired of how god damn touchy this thing is, it really does not have any give with anything....

I have a feelign I screwed up the springs again.... Im getting really tired of fixing this thing...
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Dan Harshey on March 25, 2011, 01:38:05 pm
Not sure if 2G's are the same as 1G's in the way you have to ground a connector behind the battery on the fire wall to be able to set the base idle, you can't just crank in the BISS screw.

edit:
I just found this!

http://www.vfaq.com/mods/BISS-2G.html (http://www.vfaq.com/mods/BISS-2G.html)
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 25, 2011, 03:12:23 pm
AWESOME
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 30, 2011, 01:18:26 pm
But I need a scan tool for that.

Ive done the throttle body again... 3rd times a charm (and a learning experience)

Its still idling at 1200 rpm, steady though. Ill do ANOTHER boost leak test, but I cant see that much air getting through, def not through the throttle body anymore...
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: John Hartman on March 30, 2011, 07:22:40 pm
you have to do your base idle and base timing set so that the ECU can control the full range of motion for the ISC.

Also, if your fast idle air valve is stuck partially open its gonna idle high as well.
Title: Re: Battery shorted out on a wrench, now car won't start.
Post by: Mikael Mikkelsen on March 30, 2011, 08:19:58 pm
I didn't touch or pull off my fiav at all, and I didn't idle high before everything came apart. I think I HAVE to do another boost leak test before I look at anything else. I want to do that grounding thing but I've been told contradicting things, that 2g's don't have that wire, or they do and its automated, or I should be doing that... I'm worried if I do something else will fail